Nerf Ganking Megathread

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

Okay, let’s bring back player bounties then. I always thought of removing them as a huge mistake (and false reasons),

Sure, I have zero issues with this.

@Wadiest_Yong

Now that we’re on that point, perhaps it would be wiser to consider the removal of at least some of the mollycoddling and the safety lines that were introduced.

Sure. Contrary to popular believe I have no issue with reducing safety as a general rule. I didn’t even historically have a problem with ganking until it got turned into a sport built around griefing players. Even in this thread I’ve suggested just limiting ganking to larger, higher classes of ships, even if that means putting cargo value limits on the protected ships.

@Wadiest_Yong

And here I had hopes of actually having a decent conversation/debate with you.

I don’t see why that stops it. It’s not an attack it genuinely sounds arrogant and ignorant.

@Wadiest_Yong

My view on EvE is very straightforward, and the one I embraced and loved all these years: EvE is Darwinian in nature, it’s a survival of the fittest game.

And that’s fine, but it’s still your view. It’s not automatically the objective reality of EVE simply because it’s the view you’ve chosen.

@Wadiest_Yong

Don’t look for opponents on your own side of the fence, Lucas. Just saying.

I’m not, I just genuinely don’t remember seeing you kick up even a fraction of the fuss you kick up in ganking threads when CCP gutted actual core elements of EVE.

@Wadiest_Yong

As a single account guy I can say in all honesty and transparency I never ganked in hisec, despite me joining with the apparently bad cohort of 2011

Ill take your word for it. And as for the cohort, while obviously not everyone is going to be the same, there definitely is a strong correlation between players who started 2010-2012 and the aggressively rigid views on ganking from people who like to “collect tears”.

It’s something I noted a few years back on here, and I’ve never quite managed to nail down what caused it but my feeling is that either there was a particular marketing campaign around things that were attractive to griefers or some other game closed down and kicked a bunch of people over here.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Lucas_Kell

What data do you have to show this?

Speaking of,

I requested earlier some info from you. You stated that it’s somewhere in this threadnaught. I’ve gone back about 1000 posts and haven’t found the links.

Could you kindly link for me the update statements for CCP that support your position that ganking is killing the game. I’m very curious to read this.

Thanks.

[Uriel_the_Flame]

@Ax_l_Thorne

I’ve gone back about 1000 posts and haven’t found the links.

I think he might have rick rolled you.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Ax_l_Thorne

Could you kindly link for me the update statements for CCP that support your position that ganking is killing the game.

I’ve already linked to the fanfest presentation and the blog posts about ganking multiple times in this thread, though I’m pretty sure I haven’t said the words “killing the game”.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

And that’s fine, but it’s still your view. It’s not automatically the objective reality of EVE simply because it’s the view you’ve chosen.

Right. It is how I experience the game. And it’s a prevalent experience among the people I play with (including those in hisec). And if I dig long and hard enough, it’s probably possible to find quotes from the original designers in that sense too. And it’s definitely my wish that the game doesn’t deteriorate into something that is less than tough, demanding and relentless (or elitist as some would have us believe).

@Lucas_Kell

I’m not, I just genuinely don’t remember seeing you kick up even a fraction of the fuss you kick up in ganking threads when CCP gutted actual core elements of EVE.

A fuss ? Moi ? Admit it keeps you somewhat entertained. And when ccp ever dreams of touching stealth bombers in ways they don’t want to be touched, I’ll be there dropping extra ammo, LOL.

@Lucas_Kell

Contrary to popular believe I have no issue with reducing safety as a general rule. I didn’t even historically have a problem with ganking until it got turned into a sport

(I left out “around griefing players” in the quote because I disagree with that part)
Let’s say for instance that you are right, that that is what it turned into. The question then is "why did it turn into that type of ‘sport’. Could it be that perhaps that too is emergent gameplay caused by changes introduced to core gameplay elements by ccp ? What if those changes were reconsidered ? What if the reasons for those changes don’t hold up in hindsight ? Murphy’s law implies that when one iterates on a faulty system, the problems only get worse, right ?

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

And it’s definitely my wish that the game doesn’t deteriorate into something that is less than tough, demanding and relentless

It’s already “less than tough, demanding and relentless”. EVE is not a hard game and never has been.

@Wadiest_Yong

The question then is "why did it turn into that type of ‘sport’.

Because players who thrive on griefing others but get banned from other games realised they don’t get banned for it here as long as they disguise it as gameplay. And they’ve repeatedly skirted the line with several people getting banned along the way.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

EVE is not a hard game and never has been.

So, as an example, the players who lose all they have when their cheap and ill chosen hauler gets blown up are all faking it ? Okay…
(I know you claim EvE was never a tough game. I find that claim funny. Perhaps you forgot your own start in EvE, your first bigger goals you tried to achieve. Whatever, it’s your opinion, you’re welcome to it).

@Lucas_Kell

Because players who thrive on griefing others but get banned from other games

Griefing is not allowed in EvE, never was. You mistake all ganking for griefing, and perhaps underestimate the level of roughness that is allowed in EvE as opposed to other games. As an other example, scamming (without exploits) is also allowed. But it may take another 4000 posts and lots of funny mushrooms before that finally starts sinking in.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Lucas_Kell

I’ve already linked to the fanfest presentation and the blog posts about ganking multiple times

I’ve gone back about 1000 posts so far and have been unable to locate it.

Kindly re-link it please.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

So, as an example, the players who lose all they have when their cheap and ill chosen hauler gets blown up are all faking it ?

But that’s not the game being hard, that’s just losses mattering early on.

@Wadiest_Yong

I know you claim EvE was never a tough game. I find that claim funny. Perhaps you forgot your own start in EvE, your first bigger goals you tried to achieve.

I didn’t forget anything, it was just never a challenge. Admittedly I was already a veteran gamer and played multiple games competitively, but the hardest part about EVE is and has always been an unintuitive UX. As soon as you get past that the actual game loop is pretty easy. Once you start building up as well it rapidly becomes difficult to lose enough for it to actually matter unless you’re actively trying to lose stuff.

Is there a reason you use a lowercase ‘v’ btw?

@Wadiest_Yong

Griefing is not allowed in EvE, never was. You mistake all ganking for griefing, and perhaps underestimate the level of roughness that is allowed in EvE as opposed to other games.

Yes it is. I’m not mistaking anything. When you attack another player and your intention is to get an negative emotional reaction from that player so you can laugh about it with your mates, that is griefing. And that’s what most of ganking is built around. It’s not exactly hidden that they are “harvesting tears”.

@Wadiest_Yong

As an other example, scamming (without exploits) is also allowed.

Sure, and when Erotica1 departed from scamming for rewards and started doing it to get emotional reactions CCP banned him. Gankers still do the same thing, they just don’t push it quite as far most of the time so they walk on the very edge of the EULA.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

When you attack another player and your intention is to

… sell mining permits, it’s not griefing, it’s roleplay.

Unless you have some sort of a study done on the “intentions” of gankers in hisec, we’ll just ignore that statement.

On the other hand, I can imagine that gratuitous salt and tears can be an extra bonus.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

sell mining permits, it’s not griefing, it’s roleplay.

Oh yes, just like Erotica1 was just “running a bonus room”. This is exatly the type of thing I mean when I say “they disguise it as gameplay”. If all they are doing is selling mining permits, why has their website always been a showcase of the most negative reactions they’ve managed to goad out of people?

[Wadiest_Yong]

Ask Aiko, who is in a better position to answer that than I will ever be. And please stop stretching the subject to include Erotica1 - that’s just silly. This is a thread about ganking.

[Lucas_Kell]

You’re being disingenuous. We all know why, we all know that their aim was to generate these responses.

The comparison with Erotica1 is spot on though. It was a player seeking to upset other players covering it up by claiming gameplay reasons. You only don’t like it because it shatters the idea that claiming something is gameplay automatically stops it being griefiig.

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Wadiest_Yong

Could it be that perhaps that too is emergent gameplay caused by changes introduced to core gameplay elements by ccp ?

There is more than the ring of truth to this position, Wadiest, if you substitute for ‘griefing’, ‘ganking’.

It was ganking itself which underwent change, in response to attempts by CCP to rein-in what was presented to it by some players as, basically, wholesale slaughter (which it has never been).

Each time a nerf to ganking was deployed, we pushed back in an effort to preserve the playstyle, whilst at the same time operating within the new parameters.

It was James 315 who organised the activity within Highsec at that time, drawing together previously disparate groups and solo players into a loose and broad-based coalition with shared objectives and interests.

He wrote a daily blog, Minerbumping, which drew and entertained many of his supporters (and not a few of the other sort…).

As far as Highsec is concerned, his achievement has been unparalleled. He started out as a lone capsuleer bumping miners in Arvasarus, in order to sell them Permits at 10 Mil a pop, and ended up fronting a huge organisation, known throughout New Eden. The nay-saying scallywags of our Official Opposition will struggle to achieve anything remotely as successful.

(He also gave me my first break as a Voice Actor - which eventually became a RL job - Ta’, James!)

So yes, emergent ganking gameplay has always been a response to a situation presented to the ganker, and quite beyond his control.

That so many of us have continued in spite of the nerfs and the hysterical, hyperbolic opposition sometimes seen on these boards is surely the best testament to our resolute and optimistic natures.

We are EVE.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Lucas_Kell

I’ve already linked to the fanfest presentation and the blog posts about ganking multiple times in this thread,

@Ax_l_Thorne

I’ve gone back about 1000 posts so far and have been unable to locate it.

Kindly re-link it please.

Then a bunch of posts with other people.

I know you got a lot of irons in the fire, with multiple convos going.

Could you do me a solid and please re-link the fanfest presentation from CCP. I’m very curious to watch it, and I have been unable to locate in this massive thread of over 8000 posts.

Kindly, thank you.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Ax_l_Thorne

Could you do me a solid and please re-link the fanfest presentation from CCP. I’m very curious to watch it, and I have been unable to locate in this massive thread of over 8000 posts.

Sure, here. Sorry I missed your last post.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

As far as Highsec is concerned, his achievement has been unparalleled

Only to gankers. Realistically he was a loser that harassed new players and made a blog with responses he’d baited them into.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

Thanks!

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Lucas_Kell

@Sasha_Nemtsov

As far as Highsec is concerned, his achievement has been unparalleled

Only to gankers.

Name any other Highsec-dwelling capsuleer who has grown a similarly large organisation around a single playstyle, and which is known throughout New Eden.

His legacy is certainly respected mainly by gankers, but - personality aside - surely, not even you can deny that he built that legacy with hard work and commitment?

[Lucas_Kell]

@Sasha_Nemtsov

Name any other Highsec-dwelling capsuleer who has grown a similarly large organisation around a single playstyle, and which is known throughout New Eden.

Why bother? I could name people like Tora Bushido but I’m sure you’d come up with some reason they don’t count because ultimately you’re always going to push the narrative that code is somehow relevant.

I’d definitely argue that @Mike_Azariah smashes through James 315, because while he didn’t build “a similarly large organisation” he did get elected to the CSM multiple times as a highsec player, without being part of any massive alliances. That to me suggests a level of respect from the playerbase that James couldn’t hope to achieve.

Hell, even Gevlon outperformed James, and that guy was an idiot.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

His legacy is certainly respected mainly by gankers, but - personality aside - surely, not even you can deny that he built that legacy with hard work and commitment?

I absolutely can deny that. He harassed some players built a bunch of alt accounts then encourage a relatively small but relatively loud group of people to join up and repeat his phrases. Even that he only really managed to achieve though connections with goons.

@Gix_Firebrand

I’m over here straight laughing at you bro.

OK. Laugh away. vOv

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

You’re being disingenuous. We all know why, we all know that their aim was to generate these responses.

Not really, it was added content to a lucrative business of selling permits, and the fun of killing those who refused to pay. So if one strikes gold (salt and tears), why not make use of it.

And to repeat it for the third and final time in today’s exchange, I fully acknowledge the existence of real griefing in EvE. There’s nothing disingenuous about that. But we’re worlds apart in our respective ideas of what is griefing. I don’t follow your lead on that one, that’s for sure. Even that is not important. It shouldn’t even capture your attention.