Actually the mug who sometimes reimburses gankees is me…as Aiko knows. But I am being gradually cured of that carebear streak 
In fact I have an alt who is skilling up for ganking. Isanamo seems a nice place to start practicing !
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It’s not A and not A though.
Like if I have a fruit, and I say “I’m not saying it’s an apple, but I’m not saying it’s not an apple”, that’s not the same as “it is an apple and it is not an apple”. The former is what I’ve said and it is in no way contradictory.
Great, I openly encourage gankers to increase ganking and to do so in systems on the path from career agents. The bigger the issue the faster CCP will act. I might roll my gank fleet back out, I can do 20 ventures every 15 minutes or so then.
So, you’ve gone from helping people to wanting to hurt them.
That’s a wide swing…why the change of heart?
Which could be construed as you not knowing nor caring what it is. It could be a yacht, or a fluffy bunny. In fact, it is meaningless for the object in question, but it does say something about the mindset of the author.
I smell a trap… It’s not nice to goad people into doing something that will eventually hurt them indirectly. You should educate them about what constitutes a gank and what is a grieving action “I’m not saying this is a gank, and I’m not saying this is not a gank, in fact I’m not even listening”.
By the way, what’s the deal with Isanamo ? There’s more activity in an old people’s home… (I planted an alt there to see what the fuzz is about).
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Sure, and since we’re talking about whether ganking is the cause of the player drop, I think it’s reasonable to somewhat sit on the fence. We know it has some impact based on CCPs statements, but how much impact and whether it’s the main cause we can’t possibly know without data that CCP don’t release.
I find it funny though that me saying that we can’t declare it causation or not causation and that I defer to CCPs statement, that’s somehow controversial. Somehow I’m being accused of bias by the person saying “we can’t prove it either way SO IT’S DEFINITIELY NOT LINKED!!!”. You’ve called for rational discussion in the past, so in what was is my position on this not the rational one?
It’s not a trap, just the reality that the more gankers exploit their easy mechanic to the detriment of new players, the faster CCP will act.
Why would I bother trying? It won’t do anything. This is why my stance hardened from “ganking should be balanced” to “ganking should be removed”, when it became abundantly clear that there was no way to reason with a ganker and no compromise to be found. So ■■■■ 'em.
You just dig yourself a deeper hole. Your actual words were…
Lucas : ‘I’m not saying it’s causation.’
Lucas : ’ I’m not saying there’s no causation.’
If you are not saying there is NO causation then clearly you are saying there IS causation, which contradicts your first statement. Anyone with a brain sees the two statements as mutually exclusive.
You aren’t by any chance this guy in your spare time ?..
I’m not. I’m 100% certain that the bulk of the player drop has zero to do with ganking, and everything with changes to the game. Need citation ? How about the history of EvE Online…
I’ll go even further: the nonsense about “nerf ganking” is nothing but a distraction, and a constant flashpoint for people who are unwilling to accept a fundamental reality - if not a deliberate design choice - about this game.
But… carry on. I posted a nice video in the Caturday thread for anyone who needs some distraction from all the bickering.
P.S.: Griefing is a different matter, and one where I would not want to blur the lines of what is and what is not griefing. Clarity is key, and only CCP can ever provide it for their product. But you were not discussing griefing either, rather a hybrid of ganking and griefing that only exists in that grey zone where so many forum warriors thrive.
Okay… does that mean an end to the posts, or a new rant ?
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Hilarious ! Lucas now wants to pretend he’s spent the past 237 zillion posts sitting on the fence ! Gotta love these moments when the forums produce comedy gold.
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Are you actually on crack? I literally explained this then you said “NOPE” then showed me that I was entirely correct in my explanation while quoting my explanation.
The second part of what that guy is saying is different from what I said though, in a fairly significant way. I get that the English language isn’t a strength of yours but this is pretty basic syntax.
You say “the history of EVE online” but then this is what I was pointing out. That while ganking has been around for pretty much ever, the current form of ganking where it’s pretty much a sport has only really been a thing for about a decade, and the playerbase has been shrinking for about a decade. So there is a correlation, just no data that shows whether there is or is not a causal link.
Now if you have data that proves it one way or another I’m more than happy to look at it, but until you can provide that I’m taking CCP at their word and their word is that it affects retention.
And you’re absolutely welcome to that opinion. I happen to disagree. I think that historically ganking was used as a tool to indirectly fight over resources but that it got turned into nothing more than a way to “generate tears”, a playstyle where the end goal is to upset other players, and this is evidenced by the shift to pressing them for responses and continuing the abuse out of game.
I think that’s had a knock-on effect both in terms of causing new players to leave and putting off potential new players who don’t want to join a game just to be the target of abuse.
I genuinely don’t think there is much of a line anymore. I think that for most gankers the primary goal is the outrage of the player behind their target, not any form of in-game result.
It means I’ll continue to push back against gankers until they cease to exist, regardless of how much abuse they sling, regardless of how many personal attacks they resort to.
Oh look, more wild misrepresentations from Altara. It’s almost like you have no actual points to make on the topic.
Oh I’m sure that hisec ganking affects a part of the retention. It rejects people not able to play the game, let alone evolve into a player sampling the entire (dark, unrelentless parts of the) game. This never was a game for everyone, and neither is chess. In fact it’s a niche game for players with a particular mindset. What is really going on is the “missed revenue”, of “so many people trying the game and almost all of them leave again within two weeks”. And that, as you know, points at two different objectives within the same company that are at odds with each other. Guess which one has the potential of running the game completely into the ground ?
I happen to disagree with that. There is absolutely no difference between pvp in hisec and in nullsec for that matter. Both sectors will undoubtedly harbor some oddballs with that strange mindset. The best way, in my opinion at least, to deal with ganking is to not take it as a personal affront but as a factor in a game where nowhere is safe. Can’t deal with a PvP game where one has to learn about survival in an unforgiving way ? Find another one, leave before you get the urge to post nonsense on the forums (and I don’t mean you personally). The cats here catch mice where and when they can.
Don’t give in to this preconditioned reflex of helplessness.
Sounds like a crusade… not a good thing.
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No…but I suspect I need to be to read your posts.
This is often stated and the majority of the time the people stating it claim it’s people with their mindset, but in reality the game has always been pretty broad, that’s the nature of a sandbox. The problem is that they’ve allowed a handful of groups to define “what EVE is” and those groups have got out of control. Sov null alliances are another sizable example of this.
I’m pretty sure the one jamming microtransactions into everything is the one running it into the ground.
There’s crossover sure but no I think there are massive differences between PvP in null and ganking. Don’t get me wrong, I think originally there was a heck of a lot more crossover between regular PvP and ganking, but ganking has increasingly been taken over by people deliberately farming player reactions and using tactics designed to provoke an emotional response.
Much like Erotica1, where the aim shifted from in-game rewards to generating emotional outrage and laughing about it with his mates, ganking has done the same. They farm outrage so they can laugh at it.
They do, hence ganking affecting retention.
It’s not “nonsense” just because you disagree with it. Their views on the game are just as valid as yours.
The worst thing a company can do is try to be niche AND try to please what seems to be the majority…and end up cheesing off both vets and noobs with a dumbed down version. The notion that noobs appreciate the game being made easier for them is simply not true. The portion of noobs who want a game made easier for them is much smaller than the portion who will object and want the game kept hard. Early lessons with Counterstrike exemplified that. Chasing the ‘I want the game easier’ crowd is a recipe for disaster. Take note, CCP.
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What data do you have to show this?
That is simply not true, especially in highsec. Aiko’s dominion, for example, extends over a handful of systems that Safety frequent often. Sure, they go on longer trips sometimes and I’ve even seen them down at Amarr…but in general their dominion extends a few systems from Uedama, and is not even absolute in those areas. There are vast areas of Eve highsec where you see Safety once in a blue moon. In fact there are large areas where a person can mine in relative safety all day and even the other culprits like Riot and CODE seldom visit. So much for ganking being out of control !
You’d know that if you ever actually logged in or travelled extensively.
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Feel free to read the history of games such as Counterstrike.
I am confident that a good game designer would or will address anything that has gotten out of control, as in griefing - which is a very different thing compared to hisec pvp referred to as ganking. It’s not the Aiko’s and the James’s and the Adrians who define hisec reality, for instance. That’s (hopefully) not what is being discussed here.
They come in many flavors. As an example, some resort to another form of soft extorsion called “rent”. Some don’t. Since sovereignty, the key part of nullsec gameplay, requires numbers, it’s only normal that alliances exist. Also for their day to day activities, like income generation, there is safety in numbers and organization. You know that, you’ve lived there. Not sure what point or connection you were trying to make.
Pretty close. If you lived nearby I’d come over and give you a box of cigars 
Ouch, that is a very very different story, starting with a funny scam but ending with griefing. It also had nothing to do with pvp or ganking.
Wheat and chaff. I know it sounds tough, but I think this game deserves preservation. The game selects its players, not vice versa.
Nah, views don’t matter if they start by denying reality. It’s just a token of entitlement. I started this game when its reputation was long settled, with wardecs all over hisec, no safety settings, concordokken still a thing, and the rest of the tough aspects. Somehow I settled into a mindset of “okay, let’s see if this thing can beat me”. And the rest is, as they say, history.
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The World®
It has nothing do with what system one crappy player hangs out in, it’s to do with CCP historically allowing certain players to drive the narrative about what the game is to the detriment of everyone else, and it’s mostly null groups and their offshoots, of which ganking is one.
Contrary to what you’ve been told, ganking was not always like is it now. The chances of you getting ganked in a worthless ship were basically nil. Ganking used to be a way to attack operations in highsec and to generate income. Now the vast majority is ganking is designed to test the line of griefing, to find ways to make targets respond and to wind them up enough to make their responses angry so they can be mocked. It’s why they go after streamers a lot too, because it’s easy to record the reactions in real time.
I guarantee I log on and travel more that you. I get that you logged on one time and got told some stuff by Aiko but you’re not an expert. You’re not even a competent amateur, you’re barely more than a poorly trained alt. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t know the first thing about the vast majority of EVE so excuse me if I don’t take you seriously when you try to explain EVE to me.
So no data then. Even if data from other games was relevant, which it’s not, you can’t really compare a game like counterstrike since counterstrike is pure combat PvP game with EVE is a sandbox game with a heavy mix of PvE and PvP content - with PvP covering vastly more than just “pew pew”.
Right, but this is CCP and it has got out of control and nothing has been done. CCP won’t do anything until some poor kid offs himself after being harassed in one of the ganker channels. Then much like with Erotica1 they’ll suddenly care about psychologically torturing other players.
The point I was making is that sov null groups built up enough power with the developers to convince them that what nullsec wants is the definition of EVE, which is why null groups have repeatedly been handed advantages at the detriment of the rest of the game. Citadels even allowed these groups to start profiting off of highsec and when highsec groups put up towers with zero taxes to compete with null towers like TTT, null groups had CCP change the game to add a minimum fee so they could no longer be undercut.
A lot of gankers come from teh same group and they’ve manage to push this narrative that being blown up anywhere is the core of EVE, but historically that was not the case. So claims that everyone who thinks ganking should nerfed are somehow ruining the core design of EVE are baseless.
It’s exactly the same. Ganking started out as an in-game thing done for in-game reaons and in-game rewards. Then they realised they can start sending mails, badgering them in local and inviting them to channels to get reactions out of them which they then collated and published. Over time the in-game reasons have mostly vanished and ganking is now predominantly done to generate those reactions.
It doesn’t sound tough, it sounds arrogant and ignorant. It sounds like you’ve decided that what you like about the game is what needs to be preserved, even though to those of us who arrived here in the early days (I started in 2005) it’s not a core part of the game. There’s no real difference between you and someone who wants their PvE playstyles protected other than you’re arrogant enough to think the playstyle you like is the core of the game.
Amusingly one of the big USPs of EVE right from the start was a player-driven economy with limited developer intervention and you don’t seem to have any issues with them repeatedly shitting all over that. I guess not everything needs to be preserved, eh?
When did you join? The 2010-2012 cohort with the majority of the current gankers who claim the game must not be changed except if it benefits them?
That’s a fair point, but up to a point. Some of what you are stating was not because of any particular wishes of certain nullsec groups but rather emergent gameplay - unforeseen by CCP or even ignored when they were warned by the same nullsec groups that the danger existed and how it would be used. That’s what you get when 400 or so game guardians are up against thousands of bright players.
Okay, let’s bring back player bounties then. I always thought of removing them as a huge mistake (and false reasons), with the pinnacle being to first make rookies exempt of player bounties (poor kids couldn’t handle the “Wanted” sign on their pics, apparently, oh dear oh dear, just like some fortnite players can’t handle their losses eh ?).
Now that we’re on that point, perhaps it would be wiser to consider the removal of at least some of the mollycoddling and the safety lines that were introduced.
And here I had hopes of actually having a decent conversation/debate with you. Alas, we reached the apparently inevitable divide again. My view on EvE is very straightforward, and the one I embraced and loved all these years: EvE is Darwinian in nature, it’s a survival of the fittest game. One can handle it, or one can’t. I can’t handle an FPS, but I wouldn’t call the typical FPS player macho, arrogant or ignorant.
I haven’t said a word about the economy in this thread. I’ve said plenty about it when the changes were rolled out, and none of it was CCP-friendly. Don’t look for opponents on your own side of the fence, Lucas. Just saying. Take a breath, not everyone with a view differing from yours has to be your enemy. Only if you insist.
P.S. As a single account guy I can say in all honesty and transparency I never ganked in hisec, despite me joining with the apparently bad cohort of 2011