You are an alpha player, you need to haul an item that is 5,000 m3. How do you do it and survive a tornado gate camp with smart bombs in High Sec? Low and Null gate camps, yeah fair game in my book anything goes there.
You might want to go to Eveonline.com, then scroll down a little bit and read what CCP says about “What is Eve Online”. Nowhere does it say you “have” to engage PvP or PvE. Forcing someone to be a part of PvP, especially if a paying customer, will continue to cause issues. MMO in an ever-expanding sandbox it says. Well, what does a sandbox mean @Shipwreck_Jones? It means you do what you want to do, not what others want you to do, and that is, from what I can tell what @Arumi_Liz is trying to say. And I agree 100%.
Understanding social behavior has changed over the years is important too. And you should consider this when thinking about ganking, and other toxic griefer-type behaviors. Are all gankers toxic, no. Are all griefers toxic no? I can only share from my stats, which is 100% of all ganks that I have been involved with crossed multiple accounts were toxic (High Sec specifically), PvP in null was not toxic, just PvP as most would imagine. Some may well be great people, but not even one time did I meet them over let’s say 20+ ganks over the years.
We do need destruction, that is what makes the Eve World go around. I have been saying for the longest time ganking can be replaced by NPC rats 100% (Hight sec only). Rats are not toxic they either kill you or you kill them, without a word. Triglavian’s killed more miners than any ganking corp could dream of, so think along those lines. Duals and War still need to be in High Sec, but random PvP should be reserved for Low and Null. Opinion here.
I also agree CCP won’t do anything. I don’t think they fully understand beyond the data they get. And apparently, it isn’t enough to change anything. But there are time I simply want to do what I want to do in the MMO game I pay for, participate in, and I don’t want my activities influenced by others. I don’t think that is asking for a lot.
People just avoid the forest because they understand that 500+ dps destroyers are waiting on the other side in high sec and who knows what out in low and null. Usually have better gear too.
A sandbox allows rich player interactions so that emergent gameplay between players can arise that aren’t defined in any coded game mechanics. When you buy a ticket to a sandbox, anything goes. Time to use your personall willpower and wit to navigate between other players’ willpower and wit, because “the box you bought” says “some assembly required”. Everyone has equitable opportunity to use their agency (this does not mean equal stuff).
A themepark says “when you buy a ticket, the box says exactly what you get” and it is an on-rails ride. No thought required. You can eat churros and sit on the ride and watch the lights go by, numbers go up. No one’s allowed to adjust the rails, speed of the ride, nor food menu. The ice cream flavor is always vanilla.
I can get on board with a little bit of what you are saying but that is not the definition. A sandbox game is gameplay element that provides the player a great degree of creativity to interact with, or without predetermined goals, or alternatively with a goal that the player sets for themselves. Basically you go out and build the world you want, but it is a MMO, which is Massive Multiplayer Online, and the element of others around you. And it does in my opinion make Eve special and parts of the game I do enjoy and love.
I should have added nowhere, and I mean not one place anywhere. Does sandbox stand for some super competitive elite space of game play. That is simply not true, one sided thinking, and cuts out about 90% of the game play in Eve today.
With one breath you are saying its a sandbox i should be able to play however i like. And in the next you are saying……but in order for that to happen all these players over here can no longer play the game how they want.
It’s a sandbox when it suits i guess.
Firstly you ask………do i absolutely need to move this? If the answer is yes then you ask “what is on the route”. If the answer to that question is busy systems that gankers are known to frequent then question 3 should be “is this item valuable enough that id be upset losing it” and question 4 related to that “do i have the skills and know how to move this item safely”. If the answer to that is yes and yes then you move it and own the consequences. If the answer is yes and no then maybe consider setting up a courier contract with sufficient collateral to cover any risk.
That’s the great thing about eve. If you don’t want to take the risk………pay someone to take it for you. But the reality is that most players will fly right into a gate camp risking 200mill and hoping as oppossed to spending 10mill to get someone to move it safely.
These are the issues that are overlooked time and time again. Players chose where they mine. Players chose whether to haul or pay someone else to haul. Players chose their route. Players chose when the move things. Players chose what they fly. Players chose how they fit.
Players are in complete control of their risk profile. But its CCP’s fault.
I’m not impressed with your correction, which is a straight copy-paste from Wikipedia.
If you were really looking for a “rigorous debate” and desiring a Wikipedia definition, you would have used it in your original post, not in a desperate reply to save face for having your original non-Wikipedia definition of a “sandbox” called out as being the antithesis of a sandbox.
I am glad you like the Eve sandbox but don’t try to lash out at “Io Koval being wrong” while walking your statement back. It’s not a good look.
Yeah, so you as a pilot can go and convert followers into the “hippie Eve Pilots” faction, carve out your own life, and coexist with those that do treat it super compeititive. It’s the ultimate freedom. Everyone faces the question “do I change my playstyle or quit the game”, which is just a litmus test for a personality trait or personal value system – notable: it is not a litmus test for “where in space do you live” because people that whine-and-threaten-about-quitting are distributed everywhere.
Rich coming from a diverse player base of skill and experience that all go on to always whine about how boring ratting is. WoW is considered a theme park mmo even though players regularly have emergent behavior on it and set their own goals independent of its rag tag contradicting storyline and on a pvp server pvp can happen anywhere including the starting zones and main cities. You could be flying when that was introduced and get dismounted by druids who would then shift bird form while you died. It wasn’t even safe to fly. By its nature, it was more open world and sandboxy but without the sandcastles but gankers in eve are either alts so they can be risk averse with their sand castles or they don’t care at all and just camp to get easy kills in inflate their ego as they deflate CCP’s bottom dollar because they can’t just be mature about things and play the game like normal people would where they’re on their main risking it instead of doing impossible things that only serve to give them an edge and avoid risk. You want pvp, make your sand castle and wait for it to come instead of camping the spawn point like some theme park mmo. If you’re really that good, you can play warsong gulch in wow and consistently spawn camp them at the graveyard because that’s what gate camping amounts to. Theme park level pvp.
This is a deflection, a whataboutism. Eve Online has its own problems, but the topic is your “gate warp” idea. I’ve outlined how you can argue about oughts and technical solutions, and you’re doing neither. So why are you here, if only to deftly dodge and not engage on the topic you yourself created? I’m not going to engage on wild goose chases down “WoW is better” meemberberry territory.
No there should be space for all, I can’t go to Null and wonder why the reds in local keep killing me. That is not what I am saying. I am saying High Sec, is a cluster of system, that I think should be reserved for carebear/crabbing/whatever you want to call it type activities. If you want to roll play and have a ship wedding why not. What you are saying either it is PvP everywhere or it isn’t a game? I mean please share the logic there.
I think good breakdown, not really addressing what I was saying which is a alpha will always be in a ■■■■ industrial paper thin ship, and it could a catalyst you are carrying. Which goes to the next point, you could pay to have someone haul it, but would you pay 100K per jump for 10 jumps for a 2M isk item? There is a way to learn and teach, and by fire is probably the worst way, not the best.
Not sure I am following you here, and you are mixing up the large roles of game play. If someone wants to pay to shoot NPC in a 0.9 system and nothing else, why not. My fundamental point is, it isn’t anyone’s fault really, maybe it wasn’t an issue at a time, but it is today I do not know to be honest. As stated many times above my opinion here. But another way to look at it would be, why do PvP get to PvP everywhere, but I can’t go anywhere without PvP?
That’s not how it works. CCP hears our voices through the CSM and the CSM are elected by the player base. Those CSM members have their own allegiances and will campaign for things that will help the interests of their alliances/corps. So unfortunately your voice and my voice don’t carry the same weight as the large null blocks that have members on the CSM.
And when it comes to ganking both Goons and Papi have members who have ganking alts and cause disruption in high sec. It’s not going away.
Especially yours. I have asked you on a number of occasions to provide evidence of your claims, which you failed to do, but continued to double-down on your own logical fallacies.
I am not sure what point you are formulating here. I knew two things, your definition wasn’t correct, and I could Google it with success which I did. Saving face and being wrong, it is a discussion forum, debating my personal views and opinions here nothing else.
Again you are missing the fundamental point which is, you are saying, do I want to be a hippie or do I want to buckle down and get really good at these PvP skills or it is death for me. No and no. You are saying you change your play style for me. Let the hippies make their drugs so we have boosters. You go PvP with people that like the challenge of PvP. It is a fairly straightforward concept.
Do you think there is a balance in there? Or is it my way or the high way you quite sorry…?
We can have more discussion on this depending on your answer above, but to prep you I would say yes and I can back it up. The rest of the post yeah not my cup of tea.
It’s been shared a million times. Either stiff blows up in high sec or it doesn’t. If there is no ganking then ships don’t blow up in high sec. Lets face it belt rats barely scratch the paint on a venture. So what happens. You but a retriever and its a ship for life. Nothing can kill you unless you go mining in a system with a pirate base and go afk. And thats bad for a number of reasons. 1 it drastically reduces destruction. That means less is being built and in turn stuff is worth less. You might be mining in safety but what you are mining becomes close to worthless over time. 2. No fitting diversity. Nobody would need to fit for tank. Everyone fits for max yield because there would be no consequences for greed. At least at the moment whether or not to but a damage control on a mining ship is a consideration. But why would you bother if there was no danger.
And as we keep coming back to. Gankers are so easy to avoid. Just don’t mine near there favourite systems and don’t haul when they are gate camping. If you are making the decision to mine right next to them or jump into Uedama without scouting then gankers are not the problem. You are.
All the more reason to pay someone else to haul for you. This is not a game where you do everything yourself. Even omega pilots cant do everything in their first few years. Employing a courier to move it for you is totally viable. Paying the price of that is far better than dealing with the loss of the cargo and ship is it not. But like i said before. That’s not how entitled players are wired. They would much rather risk the cargo and ship and hope its all ok ………and when its not blame the mechanics…….when its their choice thats the problem.
What 2mill isk item would take 5000m3 and force you into a clunky hauler? If it’s a small item move it in a frigate. Or…………batch it up with other things you need to move. You have options. That’s the point. Pay? Do it yourself? Wait and pay later when you have more to move? But its always presented as “i had no option but to fly this through a gate camp during prime time and i lost my ship. The game is broken”. Bad choices do not necessitate mechanics changes.
Because the core element of eve is that PVE and PVP are not segregated. The first time new players undock they get a pop up explaining as much. It is the game.
This shows you are missing my fundamental point which is: you can’t always get what you want. Sometimes you have to fight for it in this game. Some play styles, just are not viable. It is up to you how you engage: forums or in-game?
Precisely because other players stand in the way, which is the point of this Eve sandbox: the universe is dark, it is pretty laissez-faire, and player causality is deeply ingrained. This trailer was new when I started playing.
I have addressed this a couple of times already, but agree current normal rats, minus a FOB in system are pretty much not going to do anything. And yes destruction we need, and the rats would need to be turned up to trig level rats. If you had that, NPC rats would do a better more efficient job than gankers 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
Agree with you here, on your points, but am simply saying not everything is worth paying someone to haul it. It may be different to gank someone hauling high value, but you see empty ships get ganked all the time. Maybe someone we don’t understand or agree on, but my points.
A capital construction comment I don’t know, something cheap, large enough you were forced into a industrial ship. That is all that point was to make. Not specifically calling out a product.
Core element as in a selling point? It literally doesn’t say that anywhere on the Eve webpage, I am looking at it as I type. It doesn’t say come to Eve you can get ganked while you are mining a rock, the engagement is so exciting… nope can’t find it. Now explore the deep reaches of space where danger lurks (PVE), huge PvP battles… bla bla bla yeah you see the difference. You personally are blending the game. CCP doesn’t mention what you are mentioning anywhere.