That’ not necessarily a valid response. The baseline drop rates might need rebalancing.
Using your logic, nothing really ever needs to be changed. But it’s really easy to test whether or not that’s valid. Suppose that the drop rate was five times as high. Would you, today, have posted that the drop rate is too high, and needs to be brought down to 20% of its level? Or would you have provided the same “supply and demand” response? I have a feeling that it’s the latter. The drive to feel like a big shot by telling someone else to stop “complaining” is too strong.
If you wouldn’t argue for a decrease in drop rate in that scenario, then there’s no reason to not argue for an increase in the existing scenario.
Being a contrarian might give you a forum sugar rush and make you feel like a tough guy for a few seconds, but it has to be backed up with logic, too.
Logically, the drops should be available to pilots who are actually fighting for EDENCOM in the defense against Triglavians in the invasions.
LP system for EDENCOM ships and skills would also make it an isk sink. But there is no LP system involved in the Invasions…yet.
I don’t think someone pointing out imbalanced drop rates for certain items warrants an “HTFU,” though. With that logic, we can say HTFU to anything someone else says, no matter how much sense it makes. Any change is bad and must be avoided at all costs. Was something perhaps implemented in a nonsensical, unworkable manner from the beginning? No, impossible! You need to HTFU and adapt! Never providing arguments from any perspective, and instantly shutting down all discussions with a one-liner - acting like this doesn’t make us look like EVE hardmen; it makes us look like smooth-gummed geriatrics.
And will be way more overpriced in the future unless ccp adds some new source.
The sites are an event. Events run for a limited time. When its over, no more new ships, weapons or ammo can be farmed and the existing stuff disappears to collectors’ vaults.
being overpriced in general, and being overpriced disproportionately, are two different things. It seems that the ammo specifically isn’t dropping at high enough rates in relation to the ship hulls. The two should be in line with each other, because the end result of players having these ships but being unable to use them doesn’t make any sense.
I doubt these drops are going to go away after the event ends. The format is going to change, but the drops won’t go away.
If they can’t hold their own in a 1v1 then they’re exploitable in a fleet fight. If they’re exploitable in a fleet fight the enemy FC will quickly exploit their weakness and wipe those ships off the field reducing the amount of ships his fleet needs to fight which could give his fleet the win.
If a type of ship is easily exploitable in a fleet fight they’ll most likely be the first ships to be wiped from the field.
1v1 is a litmus test for a ship’s fleet worthiness. If it can’t hold it’s own in a reasonable 1v1 scenario it’s not fleet worthy. As it stands no FC worth his salt will be caught dead with these ships in his fleet as they’re too easily exploitable.
If no FC will have them as part of the fleet composition then those ships will not see fleet fights. Also, since these ships can’t hold their own in a reasonable 1v1 they’re useless in their current state.
If a ship can’t hold it’s own in a 1v1 then it’s easily exploitable in a fleet fight. If a ship is easily exploitable in a fleet fight then it’s not worthy of being in a fleet’s composition. If the ship isn’t worthy of fleet composition then it’s relegated to solo play, but it can’t hold it’s own in a 1v1 so it’s useless unless it has some sort of PVE use…
They’re meant to be OP in a situation where the enemy fleet is in close proximity to each other allowing for the weapon to arch multiple times throughout the enemy fleet increasing the ship’s overall dps against the enemy fleet. However, once the enemy fleet practices social distancing from one another the “sparky bois” (the new edencom ships) lose their advantage and become cannon fodder.
Once the enemy fleet is no longer in an anchor blob and properly separated or if the enemy fleet deploys drones/multiple cargo containers each the “sparky bois” lose the overwhelming majority of their effective dps against the enemy fleet. In that situation the sparky bois may have similar tank to the enemy fleet, but very little dps and so the enemy fleet quickly wipes them from the battlefield. Once the sparky bois are gone the enemy fleet goes right back to being an anchor blob and F1 anchor monkeys.
^^^^ This is the weakness of the new edencom ships and why they can’t be in fleet compositions in their current state.
However, with the addition of the new ships being able to focus their weapons damage on a single target to the point of it’s dps being comparable to an enemy ship of the same size they can go toe to toe in a fleet fight and hold their own.
If it can’t hold it’s own in a 1v1 then it’s not fleet worthy unless it’s something like a remote rep ship which can chain their reps together
This will not occur due to the current implementation of the new edencom ships. When an FC encounters a sizable force of these new ships he has two major options. First, when the sparky bois are spotted he can have the fleet commence social distancing by having all ships around the anchor starburst moving away from the anchor in a random direction and away from each while pulsing their prop mods. This quickly breaks any possible arch chaining from the sparky bois. Now the sparky bois can only do maybe 20% of their dps at best putting them at an extreme disadvantage vs the other regular fleet. The fleet quickly wipes the field clean of the sparky bois and they all go back to anchoring the FC being F1 monkeys. However, if the sparky bois could focus their weapons on a single target allowing them to do comparable damage to the enemy they could still put up a fight with a dispersed enemy fleet preventing them from becoming cannon fodder whilst being wiped off the field.
The second method an FC has to counter the sparky bois is to have his fleet begin dispensing jet cans with 1 piece of ammo each from each ship creating a massive amount of jet cans as well as deploying drones. Once the sparky bois show up they begin sparking the enemy fleet only to have their arch lightning absorbed by drones and jet cans. This once again severely reduces the sparky boi dps against the enemy fleet while the enemy fleet wipes them off the battlefield only to return to being a brain dead F1 monkey anchor blob.
Implementing both the weapon focusing/scripting and the selective fire tweak would prevent the new edencom ship’s weakness from being exploited. Also, having the arch bounce back and forth between two ships would increase the new weapons effectiveness in low ship density situations keeping damage output at a nominal level.
Keeping the ships/new weapons as is will prevent them from being effective in fleet fights. They have to be changed in order to attain the desired effect.
This will cause a lot of server lag, in the same way that “blue-ing” wrecks in Incursions does, and as such may be considered an exploit (possibly bannable offense).
From what I remember if it’s to intentionally create lag it’s a bannable offense. However, if you’re just releasing a few jet cans as a valid strategic tactic it may be allowable. An enemy fleet can still have drones deployed to soak up a lot of the arch lightning shots if they can’t use jet cans. If the new weapons are tweaked so that when they’re fired at ships they only bounce between ships it would prevent this from becoming a problem in the first place.
“d. A player has engaged in activity that intentionally causes others to lose connection, suffer latency issues (lag) or to crash to desktop (CTD).”
Edit 2: Hey, maybe CCP can organize some more mass tests to try out these tactics so as to see how useful these ships/weapons are in different scenarios. That should make the weakness of these ships/weapons pretty obvious.
Just make the projectors select the arc targets based on signature radius - in the same way that small drones (sort of) prioritize small targets and large drones prioritize larger targets.
The vorton projectors AOE weapons, and makes the ideal as anti-drone and frigate weapons.
If you look at the skills for these weapons, you’ll see there is a skill the specifically states it’s allows for better attacks on fast moving frigates.
This clearly shows CCP designed these weapons to target fast moving swarm fleets.
As i see it you never go 1vs1 as your DPS won’t be great against a single ship, but if you’re against a drone ship you’ll be at an advantage as you’ll be killing drones faster and kill the drone ships primary weapon system.
This would make the Thunderchild a deadly ship againt carriers, as its higher DPS and be ideal against fighters. And thus kill a carriers weapon system.
I don’t know where to begin on pointing out the many ways in which this both patently false and backed with flawed logic .
Why is this a bad thing? It’s kind of a big deal for ships to be spread apart or clustered together - spatial positioning matters. The enemy could very well compromise themselves in relation to receiving support from logi/boosts/saves/etc if they’re too far apart from each other. Being far apart might not even be an option depending on operational range (particularly with brawlers, the ships these weapons should shine brightest against). So really, if the enemy wants to space themselves out to avoid chain lightning and ice spells, good (or bad) for them .
Drones eventually die, and they die more quickly and in a more controlled fashion than with bombs or smartbombs, so while it might take longer to kill the carrier, droneboats will get defanged. Thus, it’s not as if “spam drones” is going to be an issue in prolonged battles unless they’re constantly being replenished via in-space fitting service. (Is this the best use of a mothership fleet hangar???) Ultimately, you can only ask for so much of a weapon that isn’t much different from a smartbomb… you can’t tell what targets the smartbomb can affect, so the fact that there is any degree of intelligence in the lightning is quite a blessing.
Can’t this logic be applied to just about anything? “Once the SBs/Tornados/Logi/etc are gone, we can alter our behavior accordingly”
Your scenarios are assuming the opposing fleet is disproportionately composed of EDENCOM ships - that would be stupid. It is very easy to exploit stupid fleet compositions and stupidity in general. We should not have to rebalance mechanics to better compensate for stupid fleet compositions
This.
Please do not try to make them into something they are not intended to be.
I do have an open question because I don’t know the answer myself: Do vorton projectors “self-chain” on single fighter squadrons comprised of multiple fighters? So for example, if I attack a 9/9 squadron, would it inflict damage 5x times on that one squadron? Or if there were a 2/9 + 2/9 + 1/9 squadron side-by-side, does it 2x the first, 2x the second, and 1x the third respectively? If it doesn’t, it might be worth looking into this
The vorton projectors are not AOE weapons they are direct fire weapons that arc to other ships after hitting the initial target. And they’re not anti-drone and/or frigate weapons… they’re anti-everything weapons. There are frigate size, cruiser size, battleship size, and if CCP gets these weapons to work the way they want them to work then there could also be capital size vorton projectors.
As stated in the weapon description these are meant to disrupt fleet cohesion not any particular type of fleet.
That’s one of my points. If a ship can’t stand up against a ship of its own size in a 1v1 then it’s of little to no use in an actual fleet fight.
Perhaps if the edencom ship can kill the drones fast enough then it may be able to eliminate a drone ship’s main weapon even though it will suffer significant damage as it attempts to do so. However, once the drone ship’s drones are down they tend to have a secondary weapon system as well and that secondary weapon system would most likely out dps the vorton projector from the edencom ship. So long as the drone ship’s secondary weapon system can break the edencom ship’s tank then the drone ship will win the fight so long as the tank of the drone ship and the edencom ship were comparable at the beginning.
It’s unlikely an edencom ship will go one on one with a carrier as there would be plenty of time for a support fleet to arrive. Also, the single target dps of a vorton projector in it’s current state wouldn’t break the tank of the average carrier.
Skill in tuning wave-guides of ship-based Arcing Vorton Projectors to improve strikes on fast-moving targets.
5% bonus to Vorton Projector explosion radius and explosion velocity per skill level.
As noted in post it has the ability with skills to get fast movers.
And hence Vorton Projection Operation has been added to increase the fire rate of the turrets, so with core turret skill Rapid Firing and Gunnery, at lvl5 on all that’s +40% bonus to ROF before module bonuses from the Vorton Tuning Systems.
That’s better than what the Trig Disintegrators are capable of.
No real need for the Vorton Projector to break the carrier tank, just defanging a carrier is the key here, the support fleet and other DPS will have less to worry about, once the fighters and bombers of the carrier have been killed.
It seem many don’t look at the bigger picture and only focus on solo combat and hence the focusing on more damage on one target.
As many have said the Edencom ships are fleet ships, designed for a specific role, like Trig ships are great structure bashers once they full cycle up on damage.
Edencom and Trig ships have been designed this way to be different from the norm, if you want them to be like the norm, then fly Amarr, Cal, Gal or Min ships.
This is one of the greatest falsehoods in all of EVE. Some of the poorest duelists make for the greatest fleet companions as combatants, and spamming a fleet full of fantastic duelists can all but guarantee failure in many cases. Any good FC should know this.
This is assuming a more-or-less 1v1 situation, which is a situation an EDENCOM ship is not designed for nor should be designed around.
It’s unlikely an EDENCOM ship will go 1v1 with any ship, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Actually kinda like them for a solo mission platform, but ammunition cost will have to come down to make them usable long term for mission running. They mostly shine in high rat density missions, and I’m fine with that fringe use. Really they are going to be most useful for high density anything if you skill them and keep range.
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