New Wardec mechanics - can't wait!

[MinerArt]

@Khan_Wrenth

Wrong again. First, let’s start with the NPC corp heirarcy. Which corps are above others. Is the Amarr School of learning above or below the Caldari one?

Strawman. NPC corps do not have hierarchy. You are either a member or not. There is no players who are directors or CEOs.

@Khan_Wrenth

Next, how is “join a player corp and you get benefits” against player-driven choice? That your choice of where to reside and who to work for have consequences is understood by all in this discussion, and throughout EvE as a whole. So elaborate on your assertion that I’m against choice.

Negative. Players are not required under current model or my suggestion on the fix to gain benefits that are denied to others initially. Your suggestion denies full Concord protection to everybody who starts the game. Unilaterally regardless of faction choice. Mine does not split Concord into Concord Alphas and Concord rent-a-cop. This is another strawman you presented.

@Khan_Wrenth

Edit: and after you elaborate on how I’m apparently against choice, you can go ahead and defend yourself against the same allegation for your idea to radically punish players who chose to abandon a failed corp.

You are fully for punishing anyone who doesn’t follow your decision that players must get out of NPC corps as soon as possible to gain full Concord protection by inflicting the risk of war on them. If you move them into “social” corps where they basically are presented the same effect of an NPC corp then you are just shifting players from NPC to SocialNPC retaining the same negative of the NPC corp problem.

[Whitehound]

@MinerArt

All Player Decisions. All risks accounted for. All benefits gained at costs.

I don’t see it. Players who want to leave get their decision delayed by a week. Where is the reasoning for the one week period? How is the risk-benefit ration defined here that says it’s got to be 7 days and not perhaps 6 or 8 days?

[Whitehound]

@Dantelion_Shinoni

I think I have found a way to discourage 1-man corps.

Pretty much, structures owned by your corp whose profits would be linked to the amount of people from your corp operating them.

So something like the number of members in a corp being linked to the service taxes taken at the structure?

[MinerArt]

@Whitehound

I don’t see it. Players who want to leave get their decision delayed by a week.

They can choose to leave day 1 or day 6, hour 23, minute 58. At war refresh time it updates.

@Whitehound

Where is the reasoning for the one week period?

Wars currently last a week and are updated to either continue or end at that time.

@Whitehound

How is the risk-benefit ration defined here that says it’s got to be 7 days and not perhaps 6 or 8 days?

Nobody is forcing you how long you take a risk of being without a corp. That’s your decision. CCP is not responsible for your lack of creativity or intelligence.

[Whitehound]

@MinerArt

Nobody is forcing you how long you take a risk of being without a corp.

I thought the 7 days were forced onto the player, or not?

[MinerArt]

@Whitehound

I thought the 7 days were forced onto the player, or not?

Already answered.

[Whitehound]

@MinerArt

Already answered.

So how can you say nobody is forcing them? That makes no sense.

[MinerArt]

@Whitehound

So how can you say nobody is forcing them? That makes no sense.

It is not my decision if you leave a war in the first 24 hours and thus can not return to the corp you fled from because it was in war. That is the player’s decision.

It is not my decision if you remain in the corp past the 24 hour startup declaration and leave at minute 1 to continue to try to exist the week without a corp. That is the players decision.

It is not my decision if you remain in the corp past the 24 hour startup and then on day 6 hour 23 minute 59 you leave the corp for minimum time no corp/no war protection. That is the players decision.

[Khan_Wrenth]

@MinerArt

Strawman. NPC corps do not have hierarchy. You are either a member or not. There is no players who are directors or CEOs.

Oh good god, I don’t believe you called a sarcastic joke a “strawman”. I’m sorry tone of voice isn’t conveyed by text, but didn’t the content itself clue you in? Or the fact that I didn’t actually make an argument pertaining to it?
I was making fun of your word choice, and by god, now we get to add “strawman” to that list.

@MinerArt

Players are not required under current model or my suggestion on the fix to gain benefits that are denied to others initially. Your suggestion denies full Concord protection to everybody who starts the game. Unilaterally regardless of faction choice. Mine does not split Concord into Concord Alphas and Concord rent-a-cop. This is another strawman you presented.

It’s not a strawman. Your suggestion literally is to strip full Concord protection from people who abandon corp, regardless of the reason. You can’t sit here and lie like that. A strawman argument would be if I accused you if literally asking CCP to just herd wardec targets in front of your guns to make killing easy for you. You’ll notice I’m using this wording specifically because it was a sarcastic joke and not something I thought you were advocating for.

Examining and pointing out the points in your stance is not a strawman.

For the part of your post that isn’t an outright lie, yes, my suggestion was for different levels of Concord protection for people based on if they could be wardecced. I already detailed my reasons further up in the post chain, but I felt it was a fair balancing mechanism. But I also contend that it’s not a punishment so much as a re-evaluation of power levels.

Rebalancing is something that happens all the time with ships and modules. And as with ships and modules, it is done for good gameplay reasons. For example, to look at the Ishtar’s slot rebalancing, it would be unfair to call it “punishing” a certain group of players. Nobody was punished. The part of the game in question was just re-adjusted. That’s not a punishment. And for those who armor tanked their Ishtars who benefited from that adjustment, were no more “rewarded” than they were already using a tool more in-line with how CCP wanted that balance to be.

So you say “punish”, I say “rebalance of game mechanics”. That’s a state of mind and not really a compelling argument as much as it is an explanation of your point of view. I’m not interested in debating labels and there’s nothing to come of it.

@MinerArt

You are fully for punishing anyone

Again, point of view. As a debate point it has no merit on it’s own. I want the risk vs. reward balance adjusted so those whom are immune to wardecs are afforded less NPC protection. On it’s face, that seems reasonable to me. Then you go on about social corps and I’m not even going to dignify that statement since that involves someone else’s arguments, not my own, and I’m not here to argue someone else’s ideas.

[MinerArt]

@Khan_Wrenth

Oh good god, I don’t believe you called a sarcastic joke a “strawman”. I’m sorry tone of voice isn’t conveyed by text, but didn’t the content itself clue you in?

https://forums.eveonline.com/guidelines

Be Agreeable, Even When You Disagree
You may wish to respond to something by disagreeing with it. That’s fine. But, remember to criticize ideas, not people. Please avoid:
Responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content.

@Khan_Wrenth

Your suggestion literally is to strip full Concord protection from people who abandon corp, regardless of the reason.

False: People who are not at war do not lose their concord protection. NPC corp people do not lose their concord protection. People from the other side of the system who have just started Eve Online do not lose their concord protection.

@Khan_Wrenth

So you say “punish”, I say “rebalance of game mechanics”. That’s a state of mind and not really a compelling argument as much as it is an explanation of your point of view. I’m not interested in debating labels and there’s nothing to come of it.

A rebalance of Concord code would require ten times as much work as applying an effect onto a player for a week. Remember you’re splitting it into Concord Alpha (the burly strong guys you want to protecting you) and Concord Rent-a-cop (we’ll maybe protect you eventually)

@Khan_Wrenth

Then you go on about social corps and I’m not even going to dignify that statement since that involves someone else’s arguments, not my own, and I’m not here to argue someone else’s ideas.

@Khan_Wrenth

You can hike NPC taxes all you like, but that doesn’t effect anybody else that might be hiding in NPC corps. Industrialists, out-of-corp scouts, etc. NPC taxes are effectively meaningless in the grander scheme of creating real reasons to move out of the NPC world and into the vast player experience. The only thing that does matter for them is the NPC protection they enjoy while undocked.

Countered by yourself.

[Whitehound]

@MinerArt

It is not my decision if you leave a war in the first 24 hours and thus can not return to the corp you fled from because it was in war. That is the player’s decision.

It is however forced onto the player by your suggestion. So don’t say they’re not being forced.

[Khan_Wrenth]

@MinerArt

People from the other side of the system who have just started Eve Online do not lose their concord protection.

And there’s a strawman. I didn’t accuse you of stripping Concord protection from new players. In fact, in my quoted part, I literally lined out that it was “people who abandon corp”.

In fact, I didn’t accuse you of taking Concord away from non-wardeced player corps or NPC players. That’s a three-part strawman. I pointed out your idea strips Concord protection from those who had to leave corp, regardless of the reason.

@MinerArt

A rebalance of Concord code would require ten times as much work as applying an effect onto a player for a week. Remember you’re splitting it into Concord Alpha (the burly strong guys you want to protecting you) and Concord Rent-a-cop (we’ll maybe protect you eventually)

We’re not here debating the merits of workload either. Even if you were to make a claim that you are a computer programmer and might have insight into these things, you are not any sort of developer on this game’s engine. You cannot say with any degree of certainty, how much work it would take to enact a change. And we’re debating merits of ideas for change, not how much overtime poor CCP Falcon will have to clock in over the next few weeks.

It’s entirely possible that the change I’m proposing might take a few individuals a few days to code and debug. Or it might take months. Yours? Moving the combat flag from the corporate datapoint to an individual’s profile, you think that would be easier to implement? Even if it were, how easy something is, is not what we’re discussing here. Upwell structures have been a huge change, and we didn’t get there by saying “well it’s interesting but by golly that’s just so much work”.

[MinerArt]

@Whitehound

It is however forced onto the player by your suggestion. So don’t say they’re not being forced.

A corporation declares war. Then by your argument a player should have full right to deny that war from being declared before it happens. So either you are for war being applied to the players of a corporation without consent or you are against war being declared without consent.

[MinerArt]

@Khan_Wrenth

And there’s a strawman. I didn’t accuse you of stripping Concord protection from new players. In fact, in my quoted part, I literally lined out that it was “people who abandon corp”.

Leaving a NPC corp is abandoning the NPC corp way of life. Denial of this fact is denying that corps exist that you start the game in.

[Khan_Wrenth]

And in this post you try to dodge the fact that in any use of the term on these forums, nobody ever used “abandon corp” to refer to any NPC because there is nothing there to abandon.

Colloquialism

[MinerArt]

@Khan_Wrenth

And in this post you try to dodge the fact that in any use of the term on these forums, nobody ever used “abandon corp” to refer to any NPC because there is nothing there to abandon.

You are denying that NPC corps exist. Not that you are abandoning very little but that they even exist at all.

Side note: you’re actually for applying a penalty of non-standard concord protection if in these. Which is a catch 22. Either you consider concord protection in NPC corps as something that exists and you lose or it was never there to begin with and nobody is abandoning anything.

[Khan_Wrenth]

@MinerArt

You are denying that NPC corps exist. Not that you are abandoning very little but that they even exist at all.

Strawman. And off-topic. You have one more post to try to apologize for your behavior before I consider your points surrendered. I won’t continue discussions that are not in good faith.

[MinerArt]

@Khan_Wrenth

Strawman. And off-topic. You have one more post to try to apologize for your behavior before I consider your points surrendered. I won’t continue discussions that are not in good faith.

Your logical fallacy is the texas sharpshooter

Let’s be extra blunt. If leaving an NPC corp has no effect then you have no purpose in changing the concord protections for NPC corps. You would like to change NPC corp protections globally by default to encourage joining player corporations.

[Dantelion_Shinoni]

More like a kind of Wealth-generation linked to the amount of people you have in a corp.

Active Wealth-generation of course, but it would have to be linked to limited spots that have to be fought for, and you’d need for it to be significant enough that even a medium-sized corp would consider trying to get one.

[Whitehound]

@MinerArt

A corporation declares war. Then by your argument a player should have full right to deny that war from being declared before it happens. So either you are for war being applied to the players of a corporation without consent or you are against war being declared without consent.

Well, the war is declared against the corporation and not the player. And the individual player can leave the corporation. When the last member leaves then the corporation closes and the war counts as won.

You may see this as a denial of kills, but you’re not denied the victory.