Because, as @Anderson_Geten said, for that to be possible you’d need a hardener capable of providing 100% resist all by itself. The maximum resist I’m aware of that a hardener can provide is 64% with a 20% overload bonus. I’m not familiarised with all the implants and boosters out there. Is there a combination of them and ship bonuses that would allow you to get that 64% resist all the way up to 100%?
All that would make sense if I said “Because why not?” to someone other than @Eternal_Montage with his comment about neuts. Go knowledge mine someone else.
Ah, OK, you had previously said this, which is wrong, you cannot get 100% resist for any damage type, much less for all of them:
That’s what was being dicussed, which all taken together is what made me reply the way I did, but you’re right that the comment I quoted probably was referring to something else (why neuts?) and I missed that.
back to the question of selecting hardeners : (TL:DR at the end)
Data
I consider T2 mods.
one invul gets -30%, one EM ward amp -55%
We are in a case with 3 mid modules to use to harden the shield.
Formula
An invul multiplies damage received by 0.7 while EM by 0.45
Two invuls are stack penalized : second one will bring a mult of (100−30×0.869)÷100 = 0.74
Thus total mult for two invuls is 0.7*0.74 = 0.51 on all elements
This is worse than two different hardeners, which brings a multiplier of 0.45 on the two elements.
This is, considering from homogeneous base resist and 2-element rat damage, which is actually false.
Damage spread
Most rats deal 80% of their damage in the two highest elements.
However the real damage received depends on the way you fly your ship : guristas thermal damage will never touch you unless you get below the 20km of the cruisers, so for a sniper you can consider they only do kinetic damage.
Basically we can consider we will only fight enemies at the range we chose, so only keep damages done at long range for sniper(meaning matar ships deal no damage lol ).
eg for a sniper, angel only deals 71% damage in explosive, 29% in kinetic (we ignore the mjolnir torpedoes and the thermal that I never noticed). That’s what I consider here, though I like the mach to go full retard close mode ^^
Most ships (but SOCT) have heterogeneous resist profiles. we need to take the base profile heterogeneity in account.
Optimization
What we have then is a problem of optimization :
- we have N mid slots dedicated to resist
- we consider in a first time that the rats only deal two elements damages.
- let dmg1 be the percentage of DPS that is of the highest damage element( eg for angel, 71 for explosives)
- let dmg2 be the percentage of DPS that is of the second highest damage element( eg for angel, 29 for kinetic)
- let base1 (resp. base2) be the base multipliers of our ship considering the highest (resp. second highest) damage elemnt (eg for a raven vs angel, this is ×0.5 explo and ×0.6kinetic)
- we need to select three modules quantities, so that the sum is equal to N
- we can use two variables mod1 and mod2 that represent the hardeners specific. the quantity of homogeneous hardener is N-mod1-mod2
The goal si thus to find mod1 and mod2, so as to minimize the total damage received
dmg = dmg1×base1×mult(mod1, N-mod1-mod2) + dmg2×base2×mult(mod2, N-mod1-mod2)
additional constraint is mod1>mod2.
The issue here is to define the mult function, as the stupid system of stacking penalties makes it very hard to model. we have to make tables of values and iterate over them.
luckily for 3 values it’s easy
- 1 specific gives 0.45, 2nd gives 0.522 ; and 3 gives 0.69
- one invul gives 0.7, 2nd give 0.74, third 0.83
basically you need one spreadsheet.
I did one and here are the results :
vs angels (71% explo, 29% kine) with base shield
2mod1 1mod2 = 16.1% dps taken
1mod1 1mod2 = 17.6% (ie one invul)
1mod1 0mod2(ie 1explo, 2 invuls) = 18.8% dmg taken
2mod1, 0mod2 = 19.1% dmg taken.
vs blood (51% em, 49% therm)
2mod1 1mod2=29.6%
1mod1 1mod2=30% (ie one invul)
1mod1 2mod2=32%(but that is stupid, mod1>mod2)
vs serpentis (62% therm, 38% kine)
2mod1 1mod2 = 21.9%
1mod1 1mod2=24.1% (ie one invul)
1mod1, 0mod2 = 25.5%
2mod1, 0mod2 =25.6%
I don’t have data for long-range DPS for other factions. I assume they are close to one of those (but guristas which are pure kinetic)
Conclusion
short story :
- vs guristas go 3 kinetic hardeners.
- vs caldari/modus/serpentis go 2 specific hardener for highest DPS, one for second highest (guristas go full kinetic)
- vs other factions go 1 invul, one hardener for each of two highest DPS
- going double invuls is almost never a good idea.
If you have good sp and know what you are doing it’s fine and you never need to swap. If you have low damage or screw up triggers it can cause problems though.
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This may be true. The in game fitting window shows 100% across the board. I guess if you used third party software you may be able to see a different number.
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You do get 100% resists in the in game fitting window? I’m not using any other tool, just saying for that to really be 100%, you need to be able to get 100% resist out of a single hardener by itself, and I don’t know of a way to get that, certainly not with skills, heat and ship bonuses alone…
EDIT: If you see 100% resist in the defense area of the fitting window, hover the mouse over any of the hardeners contributing to that resist. Do you get 100% resist being displayed there for any of them? If not, then you’re not getting an overall 100% resist, just some other number close to it that’s being rounded up to 100% when displayed in the fitting window…
To add to what has already been said, I personally prefer an omni tank and not fit specific hardeners for each mission.
The way I usually do that for T1 (including faction) shield tanked ships is a single Adaptive Invulnerability Field, a (passive) EM Ward Amplifier and an Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer rig. That gives you a well balanced resist profile across all damage types, with no holes, and there is always the possibility of fitting an additional invul for higher resists if you feel the need for that.
For any particular mission, that’s a suboptimal use of the fitting slots, but for general mission running with adequate skills and DPS, it’s very convenient and works very well, for me at least.
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Here is a link that should become your bible:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161118213859/http://eve-survival.org:80/wikka.php?wakka=MissionReports
Double check it before you run a mission
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And then in some missions your rig is completely useless.
“Overall” ressits profile is useless vs empire/rat pve.
“Omni tank” is a bad idea for those missions, just like “cap stable” or “full clear salvage”.
You want to tank everything (when you KNOW exactly what you will face and prepare for it) with all modules active (when EG using you mwd screws up your tracking and you mjd is only active once every 10min and your rep is almost never required) and get every tiny bit of resource possible(when those resources are worth nothing).
“I need to go to the grocery but not wear shoes”. I don’t really know what you think you are, trying to not use the tools you have to enhance your daily activities.
Let’s be clear, I also fit two invuls on my machs, but that’s because I already over tank it and I think tracking mods are not worth it. I tried painter and it’s not that effective, I tried grappler and only used it on the 13th month of year, in the end a second invul gives more comfort, so I can even do some missions without activating the shield booster (passive recharge + orbit is good)
This was in the case where you have three mids for hardeners and the rats deal only two damage (or one for guristas)
I guess for two mids it still holds, even for blood which have equal th/em damage.
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Yes, I know, and the same could be said of the EM Ward Amplifier. As I said, for any particular mission that’s a suboptimal use of the fitting slots.
No, because the key here is L4 missions are easy enough with good skills and pirate faction BSs that you don’t really need to optimise your tank for them. Not having to change the hardeners for each and every mission may turn up to be a better optimisation.
I agree here, none of my mission fits is cap stable.
That depends on mission (and whether/how you like to do it). Missions against enemy empire faction are certainly worth looting/salvaging.
I have no idea what are you talking about here. I don’t think I’m anything, what do you mean? And I do use the tools I have to enhance my daily activities, in particular I enhance my mission running experience by avoiding having to fit specific hardeners for each mission…
FWIW, I don’t fit two invuls, don’t need them, I only fit one. And I don’t use a Mach for most missions either, I prefer cruise missile boats like the Rattlesnake and Typhoon FI.
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Not as far as I looked at number. The salvage part is useless, you could just put a mtu in each room and only take the tags.
When people are told that there are better ways to do it, they usually say “I do what I want, if that’s how I get fun I’ll do this.”
I just state that this does not change the fact that this is a sub-optimal fit, and there is no reason to be proud of oneself because he prefers to use sub-optimal. I use sub-optimal too, but at least I don’t advice to do like me. I mean it’s normal that everybody is a tiny bit different otherwise the game would be boring.
Not sure how you determined that. If you do it with MTUs, the wrecks are all already within salvager range when you come back, and you can salvage all of them in no time with a properly fitted Noctis. I see how it may not be worth going back to the pockets to salvage them when the loot itself isn’t worth the “effort”, but I see no point in leaving the wrecks unsalvaged there once you’ve already made the “effort” to go to the system and warp to the MTU.
But there is nothing wrong with “advising” others to be sub-optimal IF you tell them it’s suboptimal and what your reasons for doing things that way are, which is what I did…
If you do that, you’re just helping them make an informed decision and see there are more options to choose from and more than one way of doing things. What would be wrong is advising others to do things in a suboptimal way just because that’s how you like to do it and without telling them what your reasons for doing it that way are…
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Wont lie, the level of complication has gone far beyond what i was originally looking at but its all good reading!!
As another random question, if you are having to do L2/3’s for getting your standing with a faction up, is it worth getting a smaller ship lile e.g the gila or orthrus to run them instead?
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of course. the mentioned ships you could also used in lvl 4. specially the gila.
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Might pick up and fit a gila as well then while i get my standings up. Just got to work on a fitting then
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Totally. I agree with you. I also do it BTW, stating why I use two invuls on my machs.
always the same thing : for a regular activity, delta isk/ delta time of doing it.
for a noctis salvaging, it’s the isk from the sale of salvage items (or from the non-buy of them), divided by the time it takes to bring the noctis and salvage. so you compare the hourly gain of mission+salvage to the hourly gain of mission and you know if it is worth or not.
With a noctis, if the mission is at x jumps, it thus need 2x+2 minutes to simply travel there and come back. + 1 minute per pocket to salvage.
At one jump it means at least 5 minutes to salvage(12th of hour), in system it means 3 minute(20th of hour) at minimum (depending on your skill, fit )
If you only do mission you should easily get 100M/h (from LP+ bounty+reward+few interesting items + tags), which means in same system you need to get at least 5M worth of salvage to be worth as much as doing missions. on next system it becomes 100/12 = 8M minimum of salvage to be worth it.
I made some data in null sec, where you can easily find havens in the same system.
with lots of BS wrecks easily available on system, it’s only worth to salvage in system if you are already doing less than 80M/h. Otherwise just pick an indus and get the loot +mtus without touching the wrecks.
cynabal is pretty fantastic thanks to the warp speed bonus, I used one to blitz lv2s a while back.
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That’s how I suspected you might have done it, seeing how you think salvaging those missions isn’t worth the time, and if that’s how you really did it, I have to say for the case we’re considering you did it wrong.
In the case of empire faction missions, you do definitely want to loot them, so the question is not whether it’s worth the time to go to the pocket and salvage the wrecks. The question is whether once you’re already in the pocket it’s worth the time to also salvage the wrecks in addition to looting them.
The time needed to travel to the pocket does not enter the equation. It would if you wanted to determine whether it’s worth to go there at all, but it doesn’t once you’ve already determined it’s worth to go anyway because of the loot (tags).
So the question here is whether the extra income from salvaging the wrecks once you’re already there is worth the additional minute it takes to do that. With your numbers, that brings the threshold to make salvaging profitable for those missions down to 100/60 = 1.67 million, regardless of number of jumps…
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No. you can loot them without coming back, in your BS, eg drop a MTU at next gate on arrival, take it back when you go next pocket.
The fact that you come back is definitely a choice.
In the case of tags, you CAN carry them in your rating BS. You don’t need to bring a noctis to get the tags.
And even in missions where you decide to come back, the question is if the noctis is interesting compared to just bringing in a fast indus . The indus has more cargo, ie you wont need to drop items like you could in a noctis.