No Downtime - Again!

[Fale_Einn]

@Vortigern_Vitalis

Oh my god, hypocritical gankers!

Hahahaha! That was my joke at the end there exactly. AFK gankers… Ha! There should be a counter for that… Perhaps a new kind of mining drill that extracts modules from AFK ganker ships even if they are docked or tethered.

Anyhow I get what you are saying, but it seems to me that that would be a simple mater of seeing if the mouse is moving and clicking (even if it’s something silly like ship spinning) or the keyboard is active. The trick is where do you set the threshold for inactivity? One minute is too short, they could be reading something like the bonuses for a certain ship or something like instructions on how to do something. Five minutes seems reasonable, untill I think about when I was new and sometimes read and reread things to try to understand what I was looking at. So fifteen minutes? I just don’t know, if someone is talking in a chat channel and saying things I think are interesting I could be doing what seems like nothing for a long time.
So the question on how to get correct numbers on how many active players there are is up in the air, but maybe it should just be a matter of redefining what inactivity is vs what we think activity is. It gets really blurry when you toss in something like the eve University wiki site, I think a lot of people would consider that to be part of playing Eve, I personally don’t but I only apply that to myself.
Honestly though, how important is this? Does the removal of downtime really change a number like the active user count so much that it justifies keeping downtime?
I kind of don’t think that this number really maters that much, but I’m just playing Eve, not wondering about it there’s 20,000 active players versus 22,000 active players.
Honestly if I were CCP I wouldn’t be worrying about how many there are online and active, I would be trying to make however many there were as happy as possible. 5,000 happy people is possibly a lot better than 20,000 miserable people.

[Arrendis]

@Fale_Einn

Does the removal of downtime really change a number like the active user count so much that it justifies keeping downtime?

I don’t think changing the number of actives is what matters, more an issue of ‘which paying customers get their effective window of activity hurt/reduced?’

The beginning of the dropoff over the hour pre-DT means there’s fewer people in space for players in CN/AUTZ to interact with. Eastern/Central RUTZ wind up with a similar problem impacting their early primetime. CCP, for obvious reasons, would want to keep all of those customers happy, and not feeling like second-class or low-value users.

@Fale_Einn

5,000 happy people is possibly a lot better than 20,000 miserable people.

When the 5k are in mature markets where there isn’t a huge amount of growth to capture, 20,000 ‘meh’ users is a lot better than 5k happy and 15k miserable. But then… this is one day, where 99% of the gameplay will still be available.

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@Arrendis

But then… this is one day, where 99% of the gameplay will still be available.

I would politely suggest that mining is probably more than 1% of gameplay… but not quibbling with your point in principle. My only concern is that CCP do not make the mistake of moving forward at unsynchronised speeds - remove daily DT, but not address the respawning of belts. Hey, if they want to replace belts even, fine. But synchronise. Do not do the one, and say we may get round to the other in a few months time. Apologies for having such little faith in CCP’s ability to make changes in a joined up and carefully thought through manner - I cannot imagine why I am so cynical

[Fale_Einn]

@Arrendis

this is one day, where 99% of the gameplay will still be available.

I was mostly thinking of the state of things in general with that bit. But if I were just talking about downtime then yes, you are right. At least it makes sense to me. Getting rid of downtime isn’t going to be the difference between those three states though I don’t think. It would add to those states (happy, meh and miserable) but it wouldn’t be the defining factor… Right? I mean there is a lot of people that almost seem to be under the impression that if downtime goes away the astroids will go away with it and never come back. Obviously this isn’t the case, but people seem to have a propensity for doom and gloom.

But in general, if people are miserable or just sitting around thinking “meh” they aren’t likely to be encouraging other people to play the game. If they’re miserable they might be thinking about logging out and doing something else and that, in the long run would be really bad. They might in fact actually tell people not to try Eve and since everything is on the internet it would get around pretty quickly.
On the other hand 5,000 really happy people are (I think) going to make much more of a splash, “this game is ■■■■■■■ awesome!” on some forum or whatever will go a lot further than “this game sucks” on the same platform, just because there’s so much negativity available if anything pops up that seems happy or positive it would be a relief to see and get more attention. At least I hope it works that way.

@Arrendis

I don’t think changing the number of actives is what matters, more an issue of ‘which paying customers get their effective window of activity hurt/reduced?’

That makes a lot more sense than what I said, and this part:

@Arrendis

with a similar problem impacting their early primetime. CCP, for obvious reasons, would want to keep all of those customers happy, and not feeling like second-class or low-value users.

Seems really important.
And it gives me an idea for how to deal with downtime from now on untill it can be removed for good.
Wouldn’t simply moving it forward one hour every day do the trick? Today downtime is at 12:00, tomorrow it will be at 1:00 and the day after that it will be at 2:00.
Wouldn’t that ballance it out for everyone, giving everyone a chunk of it instead of just some people in the same group of countries forever?
The one snag in this I can see is there is one place where I would be willing to bet that the population in Eve is tiny and that’s a big chunk of the Pacific Ocean, but… Now that I think of it that would just mean less downtime for almost everyone.
I wonder how many Eve players live on Bikini Atoll…

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@Arrendis

The beginning of the dropoff over the hour pre-DT means there’s fewer people in space for players in CN/AUTZ to interact with. Eastern/Central RUTZ wind up with a similar problem impacting their early primetime.

But it is a big leap of faith to think that it is merely DT that means there are fewer people in space with whom players in those time zones can interact. More probably there are just fewer players likely to be playing in those zones’ peak hours of activity. It is perfectly valid for someone in an Australian zone to complain about belts respawning at disadvantageous times for them, another to conclude that there are fewer players for them to gank just because of DT. And if they are going to interact with these magical extra players, do not said extra players need to be active, despite your suggestion that may not be necessary? Not trying to be argumentative, just I think there is a risk of very fuzzy logic here by CCP.

[Fale_Einn]

@Vortigern_Vitalis

My only concern is that CCP do not make the mistake of moving forward at unsynchronised speeds - remove daily DT, but not address the respawning of belts

Don’t worry, I’m new enough to have almost lost faith and to have already regained most of it. I will do my best to counter your cynicism with my optimism. I do understand it though, what they did to my Stiletto still hurts… A lot.

Anyhow, I forget when the last time they did a “no downtime” test was, but I think it was two years ago, to me that seems like they are being very very careful indeed and that they are planning how it will work (getting rid of it completely I mean) just as carefully. This in my experience, which is very limited, seems like they are planning this a lot more than most of the other changes I’ve seen and that they are also trying to take into account a lot more than they did with things like turning our drones into conscientious objectors.
I think it’s going to be great personally, but who knows, maybe Ratarri will do something evil. Or worse, do something evil and gloat about it. Again…

[Arrendis]

@Vortigern_Vitalis

Do not do the one, and say we may get round to the other in a few months time.

Considering this is literally the second ‘no DT’ experiment ever, I don’t think you have to worry about them rushing forward on this.

@Fale_Einn

Wouldn’t simply moving it forward one hour every day do the trick?

No. For one thing, this would mean that 2/3 of DTs will come when the largest, most experienced shift of server techs and developers aren’t in the office if something goes wrong. That’s the same problem you wind up with if you try to put it ‘in the Pacific Ocean’. Let’s say people have a 6h useable window. That’s a bit generous, but it roughly captures the early-window (3-8pm) folks and late-window (6-11pm) folks in any given time zone. 11pm on the West Coast of the US is… 6pm in New Zealand. Oops. You’re dropping it into AUTZ.

You’re also telling the server crew they have to be in the office and ready to deal with potential issues at 7am London, which is a little rough to do every single day, especially if they’re also going to be expected to be able to handle the server issues that crop up in the heavy-usage EUTZ evening hours. If they’re there by 6:30am London, they’re gone by 4pm Berlin.

@Fale_Einn

I wonder how many Eve players live on Bikini Atoll…

Fewer than live in Auckland, NZ, which is southeast of Bikini.

Beyond that, though, I dunno if you’ve noticed, but EVE players (like, you know, all human beings) really like things having a regular, predictable routine that’s basically the same, every day. Having 1 week out of every month (more or less, 8 days out of every 24) where DT wanders through their regular play window is disruptive. Sure, it evenly distributes the disruption around the clock, but because that actively changes the pattern for everyone—even the people whose current regular, stable pattern includes DT—it’s really just going to annoy everyone.

@Vortigern_Vitalis

But it is a big leap of faith to think that it is merely DT that means there are fewer people in space with whom players in those time zones can interact. More probably there are just fewer players likely to be playing in those zones’ peak hours of activity.

It’s also a big leap of faith to assume that some of the most populated cities in the world don’t bring a similar influx of EVE players. Tokyo’s only an hour behind Melbourne. Then Seoul. Then China.

If only there were a way to collect actual data instead of making assumptions. Oh, wait, that’s exactly what this sort of test will do, isn’t it? Huh.

[Fale_Einn]

@Arrendis

No. For one thing, this would mean that 2/3 of DTs will come when the largest, most experienced shift of server techs and developers aren’t in the office if something goes wrong.

Well now I feel a bit stupid, I wonder how that happened again?!?
That’s so friggin obvious and in fact I think it’s even been mentioned in this thread before and I totally forgot about it.
Thank you, its people like me who need to be prevented from breaking the law of unintended consequences…

@Arrendis

Beyond that, though, I dunno if you’ve noticed, but EVE players (like, you know, all human beings) really like things having a regular, predictable routine that’s basically the same, every day

This too is something I should have thought of, changing the clocks for daylight savings time happens twice a year and it totally messes people up.
Welp, I guess I got some typing practice, that’s something right? I also got to fight off autocorrect a few times and that’s always a blast.

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@Arrendis

If only there were a way to collect actual data instead of making assumptions. Oh, wait, that’s exactly what this sort of test will do, isn’t it? Huh.

Err, what is not you who noticed they could not even handle the data properly on the last MER?

I have no problem with the collection of data. Just worry whether they know what said data truly represents and do not draw the wrong conclusions from the wrong assumptions about the data…

[Arrendis]

@Vortigern_Vitalis

Err, what is not you who noticed they could not even handle the data properly on the last MER?

Yup. And I’ve also noticed that the guys who run the servers aren’t the guys doing that data collection for the MER.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

You do realize there are OTHER teams of CCP devs who don’t dabble in every part of the game, as arrendis mentioned right… right…

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

Unwarranted mordancy aside, there are also certain combat signatures that replenish by design every DT for a certain number of days. If they don’t do that anymore because of no DT, they will sit around uselessly for days.

[Aaron]

I don’t get it, you’re from the US so downtime for you would be around 6am to 7am for you right? Why is it an issue that Eve is offline for a maximum of 30 minutes when most people are either sleeping or getting ready for work?

A game such as Eve having a downtime is required, you forget the stories of people dying because they have been sitting in front of their computer too long without taking breaks and what about the couple who let their baby starve because they were addicted to an online game?

Life can’t always be about fun and games and I think it is ethical that ccp has somewhat of a downtime regardless of what’s going on in game. Fewer downtimes could result in better warfare for Sov residents as I know there are some long battles that could last over 24 hours if it wasn’t for downtime.

If one day CCP are able to pull off this “No Downtime” they may have to be careful as they would be promoting excessive online gaming where it is a fact that it’s bad for our health.

Let us tread very carefully here.

edit: if health problems arising from online gaming becomes top of the news again then Eve will be the first to get it in the neck if it has no downtime.

10 Gamers Who Died Playing Video Games

Sorry to throw a dampener on the fun here, but I think this is worth discussion.

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

But no, you got it all wrong. CCP wants you to live the amazing and incredible experiences that hours long titilagfests are for much longer than whatever the current record is. Downtime just gets in the way of this outstanding gameplay experience and it is good thing that it will go away and eventually allows people to get the full package of days of tidislugfests instead of just hours. But it’s just pixels, you might say, it doesn’t matter if you lose your ship because you had to go to work but could not dock or thether before because of this unimaginably glorious experience.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

At early eve development, I’ve seen that downtime used to range from a whole day, to its current 15-45 min. Sure it may seem it doesn’t affect those in the u.s. but some ppl may be getting home at 6am here, and wanna chill before bed.

30 min would affect those mentioned by ccp explorer, oceanic, Asian specific players etc.

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras

its current 15-45 min.

I am usually back on in just seven or eight minutes. That length of time is really not disruptive to gaming. They usually are good at warning if it ever gets as high as thirty minutes.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

@CCP_Explorer

There has been a fair amount of comments & questions in this thread on why we are looking at downtime; what’s the problem with a few minutes each day.

The first problem is that it interrupts primary play sessions for players in Asia and Oceania. Downtime at 11 o’clock EVE Time doesn’t affect Europe that much and doesn’t really affect the Americas at all. I covered this in detail in my 2019 dev blog on No Downtime Vol. 1 and the various options if downtime was not at 11 o’clock.

Never could understand why some people act like the daily 5 minute DT is a major hindrance, god forbid anybody is inconvenienced by such a short intermission. Just because a couple of Dev’s and CSM members are located in Australia’s backyard doesn’t make that area the largest paying customer base in the game. Compared to removing the daily 5 minute DT, the biggest priority should be on fixing all the bug issues currently plaguing this game.

Just to be clear, I live in USA, usually playing this game when DT hits and I’m not raging for it to be removed, it’s a measly 5 minutes each day, if it’s such a big issue then just set Downtime to happen at different time intervals.

[Small_Kitty_Paws]

@DeMichael_Crimson

Compared to removing the daily 5 minute DT, the biggest priority should be on fixing all the bug issues currently plaguing this game.

Id rather see infrastructure upgrades than network team doing game balance. What you are saying is as absurd as complaining about new skins and expecting art team to create content and balance patches.

[Devo_Scytheblade_Steiner]

Hopefully we can see highsec ore anomalies come back with quad 4 to combat this. reading the post CCP’s goal is to not have downtime in eve at all and are working toward it with these tests. that would be my best guess for fixing the ore belt issue. Sites that can randomly spawn throughout the day. maybe?

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

Considering the stellar trackrecord of good developments of the game design and balance team, I’d not be opposed to let inexperienced network techs work on that stuff for a change.