No relaxed Mining = Many less players?

[Valiran_Teleros]

As someone who has spent the last month at the University’s Amarr Mining Campus, I would love it if mining were more interactive and fun. So what if it nets me millions of risk-free ISK? I’m still staring at a rock for hours on end waiting for my ore hold to fill up, and that’s boring as hell!

The only reason I can stand it is because there’s good people to chat with most of the time. If it weren’t for them I’d be going stir crazy!

@Inactive_Seller

Myself down for 12 omega accounts to five

…Where the hell do people get his kind of pocket money?! I WANT IT![/poor]

@Karak_Terrel

I would call that “insane farming beyond anything reasonable you should do in any video game” and not “relaxed mining”

Why would anyone do that in the first place? That’s the part I really don’t get.

@Scoots_Choco

I’d rather have people engaging with the game and the rest of the universe rather than selfishly afk mining. Good riddance to those folks.

If it matters to anyone, I think it would be better for them to leave gradually so more players can replace them instead of departing all at once. The former is sustainable bloodletting that leaves the game healthier in the aftermath, but the latter is the kind of shock that could kill EvE outright. I’m willing to be patient.

@BOINGBOINGBOINGBOING_BOINGOBBLEOI

As far as the triglavian menace, I’m on board. They are really annoying. As for OP and his suggestions, I think they are just silly. It’s worth pointing out, however, that massive multi-boxing is something that players wanted and CCP gave to us. Shame on us I guess.

Multiboxing should be an option that provides more opportunities for players willing to make the effort, not a requirement, and we should all be disabusing people of the need for it.

@LlamaDrama

Something else you fail to factor in is the lower the player count gets, the closer to dying EVE actually gets because it makes new people less likely to try the game. Nobody wants to play a dead/failing game and people evalulate the health of a game by looking at it’s subscriber count and trends.

@Scoots_Choco

How many people have you interviewed and asked “Why did you not try the game?” and their response was “Because the player count was low”.

Why not use that as a selling point? “Hey! All the old, entrenched assholes are leaving the game, there’s room for new players to thrive now!”

[Compo]

be nice is ccp did changed mining similar to Elite Dangerous new mining. least you’ll not be afk mining

[Teckos_Pech]

@Black_Pedro

The core problem is that you can’t give space for “relaxed” mining without making space for bots and multiboxers. I’m sympathetic to the dude who wants to play a mostly idle game, making some progression while zoning out or even with their attention somewhere else. I have much less sympathy for those choose to take this “relaxed” space and fill it with massive multiboxing, or worse, actual botting, fleets. This consumes PLEX and depresses ore prices for newer players making it even harder for them to compete.

So: You aren’t sandboxing right, and think of the new players.

@Black_Pedro

There is just too much needless multiboxing going on now in Eve.

Looking at the numbers that seems hardly likely.

@Daichi_Yamato

The point isn’t to punish you for being afk, or it isn’t just that, it’s to make the game more bearable for non-afk players.

Why, are you out there mining?

@Daichi_Yamato

If multi-boxing/afk players are not dumping huge amounts of isk and materials into the market, supply goes down and values go up. People are paid more for their time if the game is less afk friendly.

So? People say this like it is a good thing…of course if it were PLEX seeing a price increase people be crying like bitches. Oh wait, I think there is a thread on that already.

@Daichi_Yamato

The game itself is more interactive as well. Bots and afk players don’t talk much. They don’t react to stimulus (except maybe to dock up). So the game feels more like a living breathing world if it’s less afk friendly.

With fewer players? With whom do you intend to interact with?

@Daichi_Yamato

Trigs are definitely good for the game long term, though i would have preferred if ccp let the players do it ourselves. I just hope ccp are willing to follow through and purge the cancer that’s killing the game.

What if the cure is worse than the disease?

@Kezrai_Charzai

CCP has spent too many years making boring repetitive PVE part of the EVE game plan, essentially forcing many players to pay for multiple accounts and multi-boxing and ‘relaxed farming’ in order to play EVE at a higher level.

Forcing players…hahahahaha…

@Kezrai_Charzai

CCP needs to realize that more active and interesting gameplay would end up with 3 different players playing and paying, rather than 1 player paying for 3 accounts so he can set up his mining multi-box and zone out while he watches NetFlix.

Oh yes that is exactly how it works…looks at Eve Offline…uhhhmmm…on second I don’t think that’s how it works.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Valiran_Teleros

Why would anyone do that in the first place? That’s the part I really don’t get.

Translation: I don’t share your preferences so you are doing it wrong.

Christ, who cares if that is how the guy wants to spend his money.

@Valiran_Teleros

If it matters to anyone, I think it would be better for them to leave gradually so more players can replace them instead of departing all at once.

Now you’re just being an asshole.

Cripes you guys really are becoming quite a pack of intolerant moralizing busybodies…what happened to you guys? “Play the game the way I want you to play or get out!”

@Valiran_Teleros

Why not use that as a selling point? “Hey! All the old, entrenched assholes are leaving the game, there’s room for new players to thrive now!”

Unfortunately we’ve still got you.

[Valiran_Teleros]

If you’re referring to deep core mining then I’d say that’s a step in the right direction, but I’d prefer it if more advanced mining tools like strip miners allowed you to literally slice apart asteroids like doner kebab and pull that delicious ore into your hold one chunk at a time.

Hell, that gives me an idea of what to do with excavator drones! Excavation in the context of mining is basically digging away all the dirt, rock, and other undesirable matter between you and the valuable minerals you’re after, right? What if, instead of being super-mining drones, excavator drones allowed mining frigates/barges/exhumers to pull much larger amounts of ore from an asteroid at once? It would be a mechanical representation of the excavator drones cutting away all the dross and waste material that the mining ships would normally have to work through to get at the valuable ore within.

Just to clarify, this wouldn’t be adding additional ore to the rock the drones are working on, it would be decreasing the amount of time needed to completely strip an asteroid of all its valuable ore. Theoretically speaking, if you didn’t cap the amount of increased yield per cycle the excavators gave, you could have someone with the Exhumers skill at 5 could fill up the entire ore hold of a Hulk with just one cycle from a civilian mining laser.

Logically speaking, there would be a limit on how much of a bonus could be applied to any given asteroid, for the purposes of gameplay integrity and sanity alike.

@Teckos_Pech

Translation: I don’t share your preferences so you are doing it wrong.

Christ, who cares if that is how the guy wants to spend his money.

…what?! That is not at all what I meant! I was saying that I didn’t understand why anyone would do that, not that it’s an invalid style of play!

Seriously, work on your reading comprehension.

@Teckos_Pech

Now you’re just being an asshole.

Cripes you guys really are becoming quite a pack of intolerant moralizing busybodies…what happened to you guys? “Play the game the way I want you to play or get out!”

The hell? What is your problem? I suggest gradually shifting the gameplay away from something bad for the EvE’s long-term health and you’re acting like I started throwing around racial slurs or something!

@Teckos_Pech

Unfortunately we’ve still got you.

…what the ■■■■?

[Teckos_Pech]

@Valiran_Teleros

… what?! That is not at all what I meant! I was saying that I didn’t understand why anyone would do that, not that it’s an invalid style of play!

Seriously, work on your reading comprehension.

Really, lets look.

@Karak_Terrel

I would call that “insane farming beyond anything reasonable you should do in any video game” and not “relaxed mining”

To which you reply,

@Valiran_Teleros

Why would anyone do that in the first place? That’s the part I really don’t get.

Pretty much looks like you are saying you would not do it…

Sorry. I’ll stand with my reading of your post. Especially after you’d like them to gradually leave so you can still enjoy the game the way you like it once they’ve left.

@Valiran_Teleros

The hell? What is your problem? I suggest gradually shifting the gameplay away from something bad for the EvE’s long-term health and you’re acting like I started throwing around racial slurs or something!

Yes, you were being an asshole. Wanting players who played in a way you didn’t agree with to “gradually leave the game”. These players play in a way you don’t like so…gradually drive them out.

@Valiran_Teleros

…what the ■■■■?

Seriously? You are really upset after you just wrote:

@Valiran_Teleros

Why not use that as a selling point? “Hey! All the old, entrenched assholes are leaving the game, there’s room for new players to thrive now!”

You weren’t talking about “shifting game play” but having asshole players who play in a way you don’t like gradually leave the game. Now you are trying to put a different light on it.

[Teckos_Pech]

@LlamaDrama

What’s your point? You think there’s something bad about people who like a chilled mining session where they are free to do other things? That’s always been one of the great things about EVE, you have the option to do that. I’ve quit other games that don’t give you that option.

This holier than thou attitude that because you’re not paying attention 100% of the time you’re somehow deadweight or not a “real player” is the kind of toxic mentality that you can only expect to see in online games. This particular toxic mentality in fact I’ve only seen in EVE. Especially from from certain sects of the community.

Building on the above comment…

Here is the thing. I’ve done my share of semi-AFK mining. Have to do some work late in the evening…log in, park my mining alt in a well tanked skiff in a belt (sorry CODE., keep up the good work though) and start mining. Yes, my face is often in my work laptop, but no my warning sounds were not muted and I would periodically switch focus. Now, does this mean I don’t interact with others? No. I’ve been in player run corp for years. I’ve been in pretty man of the major NS wars, the majority of the Burn Jita events. HS war decs. I did alot of manufacturing as well. Ran POS reaction chains for our corp. There is a serious either/or fallacy here. If you do some semi-AFK mining you are a blight on the game. Nonsense.

In the AFK cloaking thread (ironic as many of the anti-AFK people here were pro-AFK there) I often argued that if your solution imposes burdens on players not causing a problem then it probably isn’t a good solution. What is the issue here? A guy running a large multi-box fleet? Why? Or is it bots? If you want to go after the bots but you end up with lots of type II errors and making the game less enjoyable for semi-afk miners I don’t see that as a good solution.

I have also argued in the past that the semi-AFK aspect of mining, if that is what one wants to do, is actually a feature not a bug. But now…well, let us all crap on those guys who want to log in and mine semi-AFK. And yeah, I’m totally cool with CODE. blowing them up to.

Edit: And if the bots evolve and CCP ends up not catching these bots anymore…good job. Instead of driving out bots you’ve driven out those players who tend to engage in semi-AFK mining.

[Valiran_Teleros]

@Teckos_Pech

Pretty much looks like you are saying you would not do it…

You’re right, I wouldn’t. I don’t have the capability to manage twelve Omega accounts, let alone the inclination to do so, and I am genuinely mystified as to why anyone else would want to. That wasn’t a rhetorical question you were quoting, I genuinely want to know what the appeal is for that kind of gameplay.

@Teckos_Pech

Sorry. I’ll stand with my reading of your post. Especially after you’d like them to gradually leave so you can still enjoy the game the way you like it once they’ve left.

Valiran_Teleros:

The hell? What is your problem? I suggest gradually shifting the gameplay away from something bad for the EvE’s long-term health and you’re acting like I started throwing around racial slurs or something!

Yes, you were being an asshole. Wanting players who played in a way you didn’t agree with to “gradually leave the game”. These players play in a way you don’t like so…gradually drive them out.

Maybe I wasn’t being clear; I want people to stop using bots and playing AFK because as far as I am aware that kind of play is bad for the health of the game. If you saw something else in there, I apologize.

I also want the botters and people who play AFK to leave gradually under the logic that, since many of them actually pay money to do it (another thing I don’t understand) the game can survive the loss of their money so long as there’s enough time for new players to come and replace them.

I draw comparisons with this process to the use of medicinal leeches. Normally, having a bloodsucking invertebrate attached to you and drinking your fluids would be considered a bad thing, but in the proper circumstances, it can have beneficial effects for your health.

Losing the botting and AFK crowd’s money all at once would be akin to someone losing a significant amount of blood all at once; very unhealthy, risk of suffering permanent damage, and quite possibly lethal.

@Teckos_Pech

Seriously? You are really upset after you just wrote:

Valiran_Teleros:

Why not use that as a selling point? “Hey! All the old, entrenched assholes are leaving the game, there’s room for new players to thrive now!”

You weren’t talking about “shifting game play” but having asshole players who play in a way you don’t like gradually leave the game. Now you are trying to put a different light on it.

It was hyperbole. I was being facetious about how those of us who stay might draw in new players after enough people leave that massive entrenched coalitions like the ones in null collapse and leave a power vacuum for the rest of the players to fill.

Granted, this is the internet, and you probably couldn’t have known I meant nothing harmful by it, so I’ll admit I could have worded that better. Once again, I have fallen prey to my own chronic lack of competence at clearly articulating my posts.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Valiran_Teleros

You’re right, I wouldn’t. I don’t have the capability to manage twelve Omega accounts, let alone the inclination to do so, and I am genuinely mystified as to why anyone else would want to. That wasn’t a rhetorical question you were quoting, I genuinely want to know what the appeal is for that kind of gameplay.

Did you read the comment where he said he had that many accounts in part for cynos and PI? Yes, that is alot of accounts, but from the sounds of it he was not generally logging all 12 in at once.

@Valiran_Teleros

Maybe I wasn’t being clear; I want people to stop using bots and playing AFK because as far as I am aware that kind of play is bad for the health of the game . If you saw something else in there, I apologize.

You are now conflating bots and AFK.

I go AFK all the time while “playing” I’ll dock up and go make dinner, run an errand, or just focus on getting some work done while keeping my industry alts logged in in station while jobs run. It does virtually nothing negative to the game. You are pushing a load of horseshit here.

Bots…that’s another thing all together. So you are making a serious category error here lumping AFK players with bots.

@Valiran_Teleros

I also want the botters and people who play AFK to leave gradually under the logic that, since many of them actually pay money to do it ( another thing I don’t understand) the game can survive the loss of their money so long as there’s enough time for new players to come and replace them.

What harm does a player who is AFK pose? Is he gathering resources? Generally no. Many are docked up. Even if they are in a belt and the person has gone AFK they are taking a risk…so who cares. Leave it to CODE. or go blow them up yourself. And if they are AFK they’ll soon stop gathering resources once their hold fills up and the lasers shut off.

This kind of false equivalency and then talking about driving people from the game is idiotic.

@Valiran_Teleros

It was hyperbole. I was being facetious about how those of us who stay might draw in new players after enough people leave that massive entrenched coalitions like the ones in null collapse and leave a power vacuum for the rest of the players to fill.

Granted, this is the internet, and you probably couldn’t have known I meant nothing harmful by it, so I’ll admit I could have worded that better. Once again, I have fallen prey to my own chronic lack of competence at clearly articulating my posts.

These rats would have little NS players. They’d deal with the problem because they have the logistical, institutional and cultural depth to do so. HS players on the other hand lack, severely, those things. Here is the problem…

Suppose you have a HS corp with a good logistical set up, a good set of institutions and a solid culture. Are they going to:

A. Stay in HS and earn 20-30 million/hour?
B. Go the NS/WH space and earn 10x, 20x or more and have fun doing PvP?

That’s the problem with HS. It isn’t the place where a solid and competent corp is going to emerge and stay, generally speaking. Once a corp reaches a certain point in terms of those three areas, they move on to better pastures.

HS is where many of the players want to log in, do their thing, maybe chat with friends in game and not have to worry about dealing with life in NS/WH or to a lesser extent LS. It will never be organized or do anything like you see coming from NS or WHs. It will forever remain a great big herd of cats with no herdsman.

[Teckos_Pech]

The true irony here is that many who are putting forward anti-AFK arguments have put forward counter arguments to these same anti-AFK arguments elsewhere. It is rather comical.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

Nice Strawman there.
He was clearly talking about people who are doing afk resource gathering. Not people docked up afk.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Nevyn_Auscent

He was clearly talking about people who are doing afk resource gathering. Not people docked up afk.

How exactly does one do that without botting?

To be clear there is quite a bit of conflation going on here…

Multiboxing is bad…like botting!!!
AFK resource gathering!!!
Plain old botting.

If the first two are really references to botting…that’s one thing. But it sounds like people are just making ■■■■ up and pulling stuff out of their asses to justify their positions.

[Nicolai_Serkanner]

@Inactive_Seller

Anyway remember what happen to ultima online when they create a new shard for PVE … near all the people change shard.

So, and? This is EvE, not some mediocre outdated once was.

[Nicolai_Serkanner]

@DeMichael_Crimson

What’s confusing is … you.

You’re the confused one.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

Set ice mining going. Walk away for 15 minute intervals, come back.
Set drones going, come back.

Neither are botting, both are afk. Neither adds any connections of note between players.

You aren’t dumb, quit acting it.

[Inactive_Seller]

@Valiran_Teleros

…Where the hell do people get his kind of pocket money?! I WANT IT![/poor]

Working as owner of my own software business, I am the type of people who have 8 PC in home becuse they are refunded by IRS, and as no tobacco, licquor, and beer, i have many income available to me and my wife.

[Inactive_Seller]

@Nicolai_Serkanner

So, and? This is EvE, not some mediocre outdated once was.

More people in Ultima Online than here, now.

[Agondray]

@Scoots_Choco

I’d rather have people engaging with the game and the rest of the universe rather than selfishly afk mining. Good riddance to those folks.

your idea that its just afk mining is flawed, its anything thing in pve. i know people that attempt to solo group content pve either by use of alts or just solo rather than be able to fleet up with anyone.

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Teckos_Pech

Why, are you out there mining?

I mine yes.

I’d elaborate more but I’m not sure where this line of questioning is going.

@Teckos_Pech

So? People say this like it is a good thing…of course if it were PLEX seeing a price increase people be crying like bitches. Oh wait, I think there is a thread on that already.

Why can’t this be a good thing? Players getting better rewards for their time and effort in game vs botters and afk players getting less rewards for no-time low-effort activity.

And have you ever seen me complain about plex prices being too high?

@Teckos_Pech

With fewer players? With whom do you intend to interact with?

But there are still players yes?

And those players are less likely to be bots or afk yes?

So rather than many players behaving like npc’s, we have fewer players behaving like players. I think the latter provides a better experience in a game such as eve where social interaction is hugely important.

I mean when a new player joins, is he going to be more engaged by corps that are often afk or by ones that are actively playing? How does he tell the difference? They look the same in the corp advert finder.

@Teckos_Pech

What if the cure is worse than the disease?

What if?

What if the cure hurts for a little while to begin with but makes you stronger and healthier for the rest of your life?

@Teckos_Pech

In the AFK cloaking thread (ironic as many of the anti-AFK people here were pro-AFK there)

Suspect this applies to me.

However, my stance on afk cloaking is that it should be changed, but so should local.

Whilst blackout was in effect, I would have been very supportive of addressing cloaks in null. And i WAS supportive of cyno changes.

I’m happy with SEMI-afk mining. I do it myself. Like you I have multiple things going at once whilst i mine, but pay enough attention to see things pop on grid and occasional d-scan. But trigs aren’t wrecking semi-afk miners. Have you lost anything to trigs? Cause i haven’t…

So how inattentive and untanked do you have to be to die to trigs? Because it seems you have to be fully afk and/or tanked like a wet paper bag.

@Teckos_Pech

What harm does a player who is AFK pose? Is he gathering resources?

Yes…this is precisely the topic at hand.

You’re correct there is risk. However before trigs the risk was very low-borderline non-existent. Orcas can go afk for hours in hisec (and itl looks like they were in moon belts). And this passive reward is indeed compounded by alts. That’s why I think trigs are good thing and why people are unhappy with multi-boxing (in my opinion multi-boxing is fine however, multi-boxing several afk orcas is not).

[Abruzzi_Oskold]

I actually enjoyed ice mining about 12 years ago when I got real busy IRL.

It was kind of relaxing to wind down from a long day at times.