Occator Unbalanced?

(elitatwo) #21

It is a good thing to learn and I wouldn’t want to not use it with my blockade runner.

However now I am curious, can you explain how this works with a deep space transport?

So a Bustard has a maximum sub-light speed of 125 m/s with transport ships level 5 and navigation level 5.
If you fit a mwd, you need at least 1 minute to accelerate to a maximum of 598.4 m/s but you will cap yourself out very quickly and a cloak with reduce your maximum sub-light speed to 31.1 m/s.
When you decloak you will have to accelerate again to 75% of 125 m/s.

Is one mwd cycle enough for this?

In comparison, one afterburner cycle doubles your speed to 251.6m/s and after one cycle of 7.5 seconds you are on your merry way.

(Anderson Geten) #22

edit : I did my test with two stabs so the values are not correct. Sorry did not check my fit, just entered my occator to have values

you have first one acceleration tick when you align, then one acceleration tick between “cloak” and “mwd on”. you also have one tick between the “decloak” and the “warp”

A mwd multiplies your max speed by ±4.7 while the cloak divides it by 4.
That is, you multiply your max speed by ± 1.15 under cloak+mwd.
In order to reach “warpable speed” you only need to reach , not 75/100 but 75/115 = 65% of max speed under cloak+mwd. That being said, you can then add two spare seconds of acceleration (before you cloak and after you decloak)

according to eve uni
we then need I × Mmt × -ln(1-0.65=0.35) seconds, with I the inertia modifier, Mmt the mass in MT, to reach that speed under mwd+claok. that is,
t = 0.4451 × 24 × 1.05
= 11.2s so 12 ticks. Remove the 2 spare ticks and you have 10 ticks

of course with plate it goes up (because reduce the thrust of mwd) andinertial stab it goes down.

BTW the real value in the formula under the - ln(x) should be
x = 1-(0.75 × vmax × (mass+mwdmass)) / (vmax × 0.25 × mwd_mult × thrust)
= 1 - ( 3 × (mass+mwdmass) / mwd_mult / mwd_thrust )
You’ll notice there is no reference to max speed once simplified.
That is, to take plates and mwd variations in consideration. eg with the occator, mass is 19 and mwdmass is 5, thrust is 15 , mwd mult is 7.12 so total x = 1-3*24/7.12/15 = 0.32.
So the formula becomes 11.9s so 12 ticks to align under mwd + cloak, so 10 real s.

in case it’s not enough, you can

  • remove plates
  • add inertial stab to remove time required by 20% for the first
  • add a engine thermal shielding II rig to increase mwd duration by 25% (same effect as inertial stab but consumes a rig ; however stackable)
  • add a nozzle (rig, not stackable, only -14%)

(Anderson Geten) #23

typically if I add 3 bulkhead II on my occator + 2 stabs, I get
I = 0.5027
M = 24
R = -ln(x) = 1.14
so total is IMR = 13.7s =14 ticks so I need 12 ticks, which means I need to put on a thermal shielding II rig
(which means my occator has a 60k ehp only )

finally a good thing with DST is to OL the MWD when you cloak, because it almost double the mwd mult. Don’t forget to bring paste in order to rep that heat when entering warp (or to repair in citadel).

(Lulu Faith) #24

with 2 Hyperspatial rigs and 3 stabs you can get the Viator down to 2.96 sec align time and 10.50 au warp
its like rolling around in a shuttle, most gates you will be in warp before the gate cloak drops.

Insta locks can still ruin your day but they really need a good reaction time.

For the occy i had to gut myself for mwd+cloak trick 41k ehp but that the trade off if you want insta warp.
to get a big pig of a ship like that to align to the next gate before one tick of the MWD finishes it required 3 stabs and 2 nozzles

(Anderson Geten) #25

or two stabs and a thermal shielding rig .

(elitatwo) #26

Thanks for the maths and next time a yes or no would suffice, no need to look this all up.

(Anderson Geten) #27

How do you even expect a correct answer without looking things up ? There is no “yes or no” answer, it all depends on your fit and what are your constraints -.-

This way if you want to make the maths with eg OL or faction mwd, you can.

And BTW my formula are actually simplified (thus, wrong), The correct values should take into account the speed increase in first tick, and in last tick, not “approximate 2 ticks” like I do. However since people can’t scan you under 3 s they are “good enough”

(elitatwo) #28

I thought, you may have done this before, so I was asking for your experience in the matter.

(Anderson Geten) #29

indeed, that’s why my occator has 2 inertial stabs.

(Blind Irony) #30

I gotta try some of these tricks. Thanks again guys =)

(elitatwo) #31

So I tried this yesterday with a Bustard and when I am pressed for time, this will go sideways very quickly.
It still feels like the one afterburner pulse that propels you into warp is much shorter.

(Anderson Geten) #32

that’s why I said that going mwd+cloak is not useful in HS for the DSTs on another thread, instead going for AB +tank is safer.
AB warps in 10 ish seconds, mwd cloak in 14 ish seconds.

On the other hand, mwd+cloak+mjd is mandatory in null. and passive modules can avoid being neuted to death at a gate.

in HS I rather use a full tank + inertial stabs bustard, or a AB fit + lows for tank occator, than a paper-tank mwd cloak that get decloaked on random gates.
I got decloaked yesterday by someone in an epithal, the system just before perimeter. The epithal was not moving. the people who claim that cloak is safe in HS are full of BS.

(darkestkhan Eriker) #33

It will safe you due to no one scanning you down and forcing gankers/campers to have fast tackle frig pilot with decent amount of experience in decloaking tricksters. And they have to decloak you fast while having enough point strength to overcome your +2 stab from traits.

(elitatwo) #34

Yeah but in my example the Bustard with a mwd on goes maybe 600m/s, which any interceptor will reach without a prop mod.
On top of that, the Bustard accelerates very slowly. Wouldn’t you want to accelerate quickly before you cloak, so you can switch your initial direction and not get decloaked by an over-eager ceptor pilot?


Well excuse me Mr. Fancy pants :smiley: not fair I’m not smart enough to read that properly.

(Sepheir Sepheron) #36

You can overheat your mwd to make it 10 seconds with no inertial stabs.

(Anderson Geten) #37

0.75/0.25 = 3

vmax/vmax = 1


just a simplification to have the formula the simplest possible.

(Trigori) #38

What are you talking about? An MWD always makes you enter warp in exact 10 seconds if you start at 0m/s. The cloak is only there to make it harder to get targeted/pointed/scanned in those 10s.

(Anderson Geten) #39

that’s false when you have a cloak.

First you have 1 tick before you activate mwd (otherwise you have “can’t activate this module because of the cloak”), plus one tick after you stop MWD if you are cloaked, so without cloak it’s 11s and with it’s 12s.

Then, as I made it clear in a previous post on this topic, you still need low enough align time to actually insta warp, that’s why my tests are made with 2 inertial stabs on an occator. Without those two stabs, I dont warp as soon as I drop cloak (in an occator with perfect skills).

(Trigori) #40

Ok, add 1 tick for the MWD to activate, that makes it 11s max. The cloak doesn’t add a tick since you deactivate it before the MWD ends its cycle.

My Occator is brick tanked, doesn’t use any agility mods or implants and still goes directly into warp after one MWD cycle.