Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

[Diana_Kim]

@Ange_des_Larmes

It did mean something to the Caldari State, though, didn’t it? Like the Provists being disbanded.

Just like stars rotating around moon. You attach events, showing lack of competence in building cause-consequence relations.

First of all, Provists didn’t participate in terror activity.
Second, even if they did, claiming they would be disbanded because of that is akin to claiming that Concord would destroy your vessel (after attacking peaceful miner) for your ignorance on IGS. I mean, there would be your ignorance on IGS, but despite that CONCORD would destroy your ship by completely different reason.
And third, if you don’t want to be called ignorant - at least read the history materials first. I myself have written an essay of Rise and Fall of Providence Directorate, where you could read what actually happened and why Provists were disbanded without making your typical outlandish and detached from reality hypotheses. I probably could have linked it to you, but then decided that trying to use search button will do you good.

@Ange_des_Larmes

Like the Provists being disbanded. Like the Chief Executor and Caldari Providence Directorate getting disbanded.

I wonder, did you ever think that “Provists” and “Caldari Providence Directorate” could be… the same thing? Shocking?

@Ange_des_Larmes

Like a State-wide warrant for Heth’s arrest.

Based on a multiple false accusations.

@Ange_des_Larmes

If you saw Heth tomorrow, would you obey your loyalty to the state and arrest him, possibly killing him if he resisted. Or would you allow Heth to continue on his way out of loyalty to him?

I think… I probably told you specifically already that Mr.Heth already died as a hero. Do you have like a tonnel through your head, that whatever enters one ear just flies out from another without making any effect?

@Ange_des_Larmes

My point is, I don’t see how you can hold both loyalties indefinitely and, if your true loyalty was to the Caldari State, you would have denounced Heth like most Provists did over 5 years ago.

You’re not very smart, are you? My loyalties belong to Caldari State. When Mr. Heth was Executor, not being loyal to him meant treason. Currently there are no position of State Executor, he is not my supreme commander, my loyalty belongs to the State, not him. He is out of command chain - if he would be alive. It is mindboggling how you still fail to get it. I don’t hold loyalty to Mr. Heth since he is not Executor anymore and thus not my superior officer. I only admire Him for His heroism and everything good he made for the State.

@Ange_des_Larmes

You also cannot say that there is no problem with Heth being a terrorist and then use calling I-RED terrorists and traitors as a way to slander them.

Did I call I-RED terrorists? I call them only traitors - because that’s the worst crime in the State and they did commit that. Calling anyone terrorist to insult them is just dumb. Would I call a cook as a cook to insult him? Or maybe call you a cook when you’re not a cook? (I am not sure really if I-RED terrorists or not). Or maybe calling you a miner? Would that be an insult just like calling you a terrorist? Well, maybe you will consider “miner” to be insulting like “terrorist”, because you’re like that. CODE.
But anyway, relax. I am not going to call you “miner” to insult you, just because I value my honor. I will insult you only with those words that won’t contain lie about you.

@Ange_des_Larmes

It’s like when you said that the Templis Dragonaurs were not terrorists despite them literally being on the Caldari State’s list of terrorist organisations - you cannot pick and choose when a word suits you.

Technically, to be a terrorist you have to commit an act of terror. Being on “terrosit list” is just stupid. It’s like, for example, I put you on “miner list” and will start to claim that you’re a miner. I will have no idea would you actually be mining or not, but, hell, yea, I’ll put CODE on a “miner list” to call you miner. Do you think that would be smart, eh? Because you literally talking about same thing.

@Ange_des_Larmes

that you are a fifth-columnist trying to bring the Caldari State back under the control of the Provists.

I am still surprised how you manage to put words together with that degree of logical incompetence. Provists are disbanded, you can’t put anything under their control. So, is all you can do is making up false accusations against those who are better than you?

@Ange_des_Larmes

You are quick to accuse me of being akin to a parasite on the New Eden cluster

Yes, most definitely, considering how many false accusations against me you were already spouting.

@Ange_des_Larmes

So, here’s my evidence as to why the Caldari State should be investigating

Investigating into what, excuse me, into my opinions? We are not a Federation with Black Eagles who make people disappear because they think something they don’t want. We don’t have thought police like gallenteans or Sansha.
I guess at this point I should say I am damn happy to live in the State and not in the Federation!

@Ange_des_Larmes

your actions

WHAT EXACT ACTIONS?

@Ange_des_Larmes

why no-one can ever take seriously

In your CODE, which is not relevant anyway. Because CODE always loses (is it actually a reason you are evading a duel?).

@Ange_des_Larmes

Where is your evidence as to why you claim the same of me, the New Order and, separately, I-RED?

I am not going to bring evidence to something I didn’t claim and your sick imagination decided I did. Get lost, pirate.

[Ange_des_Larmes]

I know this will be a fruitless task as you are quite happy in your cognitive dissonance but I shall make one last attempt…

@Diana_Kim

First of all, Provists didn’t participate in terror activity.

I did not claim that. I did not speculate on why they were disbanded. But Heth being labelled a terrorist etc. did lead to the Provists being disbanded if you follow the chain of events. Take this news article, for instance:

In the wake of Tibus Heth’s denouncement as a terrorist and his continued absence, the Chief Executive Panel has declared it will abolish the position of Chief Executor. It has additionally disbanded the Caldari Providence Directorate […] Those few [Provist] holdouts who continued to serve their appointed duties were officially informed of the CEP’s decision this morning and discharged from service.

Well, all bar you, it seems.

@Diana_Kim

@Ange_des_Larmes

Like a State-wide warrant for Heth’s arrest.

Based on a multiple false accusations.
[…]
Being on “terrosit list” is just stupid.

Are you saying your superiors in the Caldari Business Tribunal are wrong or ‘just stupid’? What else do you believe them to be wrong about or are those judgements ‘just stupid’ too? If you were as loyal as you say, would you be querying them? Wouldn’t you expect a Provist fifth-columnist to try to undermine the judgements of the Caldari Business Tribunal and the Chief Executive Panel?

@Diana_Kim

I don’t hold loyalty to Mr. Heth since he is not Executor anymore and thus not my superior officer. I only admire Him for His heroism and everything good he made for the State.

At last! A straight answer! So if a superior of yours from the State were to say that your open support for a terrorist is undermining the actions of the State as it can be pointed to as justification to support other terrorists, you would stop supporting Heth?

Say there were a State-declared terrorist that was formerly high-up in the Navy and a fellow Strike Commander was being Court Marshalled for their support of this terrorist. Could they not point to you openly praising Heth but still having your job as justification to avoid punishment?

After all, your only defence to being accused of being a fifth-columnist trying to bring the State back under Provist control was:

@Diana_Kim

Provists are disbanded, you can’t put anything under their control.

Words that, in a court of law, would not be considered a denial.

@Diana_Kim

Did I call I-RED terrorists?
[…]
It’s like, for example, I put you on “miner list” and will start to claim that you’re a miner. I will have no idea would you actually be mining or not, but, hell, yea, I’ll put CODE on a “miner list” to call you miner. Do you think that would be smart, eh? Because you literally talking about same thing.

Apologies, you did not. But, by the same semantics that Heth is technically not a traitor because he never stood trial, you only didn’t call I-RED terrorists because you did not use the word. The implication is still - very strongly - there.

I would also like to clear up that I don’t have a problem with miners - my parents were miners. The New Order, even, doesn’t have a problem with miners. Miners are necessary to the existence of humanity. We just believe that unregulated mining - and other activities - are exploiting the natural resources of local populaces, removing from them their tools for survival. If you wish to put me on a list of ‘terrorists’ or ‘miners’ for that, go ahead.

If, however, I openly supported someone who regularly breached The New Halaima Code of Conduct or The Law of Highsec, I would be expected to be stripped of my titles and expelled from the New Order. As it states in The Law of Highsec:

Subsection 4B - Capsuleers are prohibited from protecting known criminals. This includes by aggressing an agent openly in space or by repairing known criminals via logistics.

Does the Caldari State not punish those who support criminals (theft, murder and embezzlement, for instance, are crimes) and terrorists? Is the New Order more advanced in how it handles those who openly praise criminals than the Caldari Militia?

@Diana_Kim

@Ange_des_Larmes

So, here’s my evidence as to why […] no-one can ever take seriously you calling anyone else a traitor or a terrorist […] Where is your evidence as to why you claim the same [acts of terrorism and treachery] of me, the New Order and, separately, I-RED?

I am not going to bring evidence to something I didn’t claim and your sick imagination decided I did.

@Diana_Kim

Did I call I-RED terrorists? I call them only traitors

@Diana_Kim

By traitors I assumed I-RED pilots with their treason being proven multiple times already elsewhere.

In all honesty, I could not care less what you think of me and the New Order. I have tried to show you your duplicity, your greed and your blindness but you now can only possibly belong on the Red Pen List. We get called much worse by individuals much greater than you. However, to claim that I-RED are traitors, have it shown to you how that is hypocritical when you support someone your own bosses call a terrorist and imply is a traitor, and then deny you ever called I-RED traitors…

Well, to quote your own words:

@Diana_Kim

You’re not very smart, are you?

[Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt]

i ship it

[Diana_Kim]

@Ange_des_Larmes

I know this will be a fruitless task as you are quite happy in your cognitive dissonance but I shall make one last attempt…

Said a person who contradicts herself repeatedly. Ancestors choke! I caught you on that in your previous reply and you dare to claim I have cognitive dissonance? Maker, why they all begin blaming me in their own faults. That’s get boring, you don’t even have imagination at making up more lies about us, so you toss at us what you yourself commit and being caught at?

@Ange_des_Larmes

I did not claim that. I did not speculate on why they were disbanded. But Heth being labelled a terrorist etc. did lead to the Provists being disbanded if you follow the chain of events. Take this news article, for instance:

You did bring it as an argument against my question as whether terrorism would mean anything. If you didn’t claim that, what did you do? Just spewing random unrelated incoherent claims “just to object with whatever”?

@Ange_des_Larmes

Are you saying your superiors in the Caldari Business Tribunal are wrong or ‘just stupid’?

I was arguing with you, not CBT representative. I am pretty sure they all are very smart, wise and professional. You were bringing up stuff like it would mean anything. CBT would not judge you for “terrorism”, CBT would judge you for the crime you committed under that motivation. Or won’t judge you if terrorism was your motivation for executing a combat operation instead of a crime.

@Ange_des_Larmes

What else do you believe them to be wrong about or are those judgements ‘just stupid’ too?

No, just yours.

@Ange_des_Larmes

At last! A straight answer! So if a superior of yours from the State were to say that your open support for a terrorist is undermining the actions of the State as it can be pointed to as justification to support other terrorists, you would stop supporting Heth?

I wonder, do you often in CODE support dead people? Maybe you in CODE are so fanatical, that you put frozen corpses to lead you as fleet commanders, support frozen corpses, or what else wicked cultist things do you commit for you to have such ideas to come into your head to accuse an officer of the State in this?!

Besides that, I believe I said on multiple occasions that I find terrorism unprofessional and do not support these activities. Yet you keep repeating I would support them like a broken record. What do you have instead of your brain, excuse me? Fresh algae from Kakakela III?

@Ange_des_Larmes

Say there were a State-declared terrorist that was formerly high-up in the Navy and a fellow Strike Commander was being Court Marshalled for their support of this terrorist.

You really dense like that? You can’t be court martialed for either terrorism or support of terrorism. Only can only get reprimanded for terrorism as unprofessional behavior - and only depending on how much resources and time you wasted on these activities.

@Ange_des_Larmes

Words that, in a court of law, would not be considered a denial.

Like I have ever committed anything that I would need to deny in a court of law. Among us two it’s you who must be judged, my record is clean.

@Ange_des_Larmes

you only didn’t call I-RED terrorists because you did not use the word. The implication is still - very strongly - there.

Why would I even “implicate” that? Being terrorist means nothing.

@Ange_des_Larmes

If you wish to put me on a list of ‘terrorists’ or ‘miners’ for that, go ahead.

That would be stupid, and committing stupid things is unacceptable for me. Maybe, for you. But not for me.

@Ange_des_Larmes

Does the Caldari State not punish those who support criminals (theft, murder and embezzlement, for instance, are crimes) and terrorists?

Assistance provided to an enemy or a criminal constitutes a criminal offense. Assistance of terrorist can be considered as a criminal offense only if a terrorist is either a hostile terrorist (as an official enemy of Caldari State) or a criminal. If a terrorist is neither criminal, nor enemy, support and assistance of a terrorist is not punished by law.

@Ange_des_Larmes

Is the New Order more advanced in how it handles those who openly praise criminals than the Caldari Militia?

There is nothing advanced in New Order. If you attack miners just because they’re miners, haulers just because they’re haulers and terrorists just because they’re terrorists, it’s because you’re an irrational cult who looks for any sort of pathetic excuse to commit a piracy against lawful elements, would they be haulers, terrorists, miners, and so on.

@Ange_des_Larmes

I have tried to show you your duplicity

Said a CODE pilot, who three times contradicted herself in same post against a pilot who keeps firm to her beliefs. Right?

@Ange_des_Larmes

your greed

Because I get paid billions each time when I call out a treason?

@Ange_des_Larmes

your blindness

Cute, but miss again.

@Ange_des_Larmes

but you now can only possibly belong on the Red Pen List.

Ahh, tell me more, how nice it is to kiss I-RED’s feet.

@Ange_des_Larmes

However, to claim that I-RED are traitors, have it shown to you how that is hypocritical when you support someone your own bosses call a terrorist and imply is a traitor, and then deny you ever called I-RED traitors…

You still can’t add two plus two? Should I type with capital letters for you or call a nurse who speaks fluent CODE?

1. Despite your love of this I-RED, they did commit act of treason. Committing that, they earn that name.
2. Traitor and terrorist are completely different things. Despite they both start with letter “T”, both next sounds and their meaning are totally different. I can only suggest you buying a textbook to learn reading, yet, I’ll show once again what these words mean:
   a. Traitors are persons who betrayed those who support them, whom they should be supporting and whom they should be loyal to.
   b. Terrorists are persons who commit either lawful or illegal act under the motivation of instilling a terror to their opponents.
3. I would never support whomever will be confirmed as a traitor to Caldari State.
4. I do not care who calls whom terrorist, I will support or not support them by a MEANINGFUL criteria. Being a terrorist means literally nothing except loosy motivation.
5. Your perception of what constitutes a treason is clearly in discrepancy with Caldari State laws and common sense.

As you can see, there is not even a slight note of hypocrisy in my words against I-RED.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

@Diana_Kim

Traitor and terrorist are completely different things. Despite they both start with letter “T”,

That’ll be my line when my “friends” in the Fleet next come calling.

[Teinyhr]

Nightclub Opening: The Glass House

Cite for me one instance of Sansha Loyalists ever causing issues at a public party, celebration, nightclub, or similar establishment. Or admit this is baseless bias.

I still don’t understand why the capsuleer community welcomes Sansha and Sabik loyalists/followers in the first place. These people want to kill and/or subjugate and break everyone and everything you love, at the very least they are pledging their allegiances to this goal. Yet I invariably get to be made the bad guy whenever I tell them to crawl back to whatever holes they crawled out from.

[Evi_Polevhia]

@Teinyhr

These people want to kill and/or subjugate and break everyone and everything you love, at the very least they are pledging their allegiances to this goal.

Same reason why Minmatar and Amarr can attend the same parties, I suppose, despite the whole Reclaiming and Coming For Our People slogans.

[Diana_Kim]

@Teinyhr

I still don’t understand why the capsuleer community welcomes Sansha and Sabik loyalists/followers in the first place. These people want to kill and/or subjugate and break everyone and everything you love, at the very least they are pledging their allegiances to this goal. Yet I invariably get to be made the bad guy whenever I tell them to crawl back to whatever holes they crawled out from.

And I still don’t understand why the capsuleer community welcomes Federal and Republican loyalists/followers in the first place. Exactly by the same reasons.

[Diana_Kim]

@Evi_Polevhia

Cite for me one instance of Sansha Loyalists ever causing issues at a public party, celebration, nightclub, or similar establishment.

Or admit this is baseless bias.

Technically, when Nation uplifts people from the planet, I really doubt they make any sort of exclusion for public party, celebration, nightclub, or similar establishment.

Otherwise, a sudden celebrating group of people left on the planet while everyone around would be taken would hit news headlines quite quick, don’t you think so?

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

@Evi_Polevhia

Same reason why Minmatar and Amarr can attend the same parties, I suppose, despite the whole Reclaiming and Coming For Our People slogans.

Well some of us never understood that one either.

[Teinyhr]

@Evi_Polevhia

Same reason why Minmatar and Amarr can attend the same parties, I suppose, despite the whole Reclaiming and Coming For Our People slogans.

Minmatar and Amarr only want to kill each other, at best. Sansha want to subjugate the entire cluster and lobotomize everyone in the process. In comparison, Amarrian subjugation is merciful. Why anyone entertains you and yours company, is a mystery to me.

[Valerie_Valate]

It’s because Sansha followers have the potential to suddenly break into a synchronised dance routine, so people invite them because they are intrigued that this could happen.

[Teinyhr]

That is… Actually a humorously valid hypothesis.

[Ange_des_Larmes]

@Teinyhr

Minmatar and Amarr only want to kill each other, at best. Sansha want to subjugate the entire cluster and lobotomize everyone in the process.

In fairness, I believe this is integral to the arguement at hand - the questioning of whether it is a choice or a compulsion to attack another. I could attend a party and, provided I don’t support someone who wishes to subvert The Law of Highsec in the process, I can be civil to non-compliant libertarian industrial capitalists (or no-clics for short).

I am sure the same could be true of some Sani but it definitely cannot be claimed for the Sansha no matter how much control they feel they have.

Perhaps it would be fairer to have a ban on certain implants and to curtail the ban on side-arms to reduce the risk but allow attendance?

[Arsia_Elkin]

No. Even if a Sansha loyalist is freely choosing to follow the Nation, they should be banned.

The Nation has goals and ideals and if you’re loyal to them, you back those and civilized society should shun you.

[Evi_Polevhia]

@Arsia_Elkin

The Nation has goals and ideals and if you’re loyal to them, you back those and civilized society should shun you.

I know more than a few who say the same about you. And the Empire’s track record is still a couple orders of magnitude higher than Nation’s.

[Teinyhr]

@Evi_Polevhia

And the Empire’s track record is still a couple orders of magnitude higher than Nation’s.

That’s only because the Nation was stomped before it got truly going.

[Arsia_Elkin]

The above post cannot be stressed enough.

The Empire has plenty of faults and has regrettably harmed others. We’re currently facing a crisis of corruption as well.

But we’ve never gotten to the point that required 5 empires coming together to stomp us down. The Nation has.

[Cain_Aloga]

would you be willing to abandon any efforts of reclaiming?

[Arsia_Elkin]

Of course not. But you’re probably equating The Reclaiming with the institution of slavery. That’s not the only form it needs to take and it’s worth looking at what’s actually effective and doesn’t leave us vulnerable to blooder attacks.