Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
3355

While I do commend your actions against ARC and agree that they are to blame in the situation, and that they dabble in the technology their dishonorable hands should have never landed upon, I would like to remind you that the so-called ‘Pochven’ region is an illegally occupied State territory, that Triglavian invaders govern only because we are engaged elsewhere against more dangerous and inhuman enemies, that torture and genocide our Citizens.

Please keep in mind, that as soon as the Federation and Nation will be dealt with, our eyes will turn back to the Pochven and we will come back for what is ours.

Because we are Caldari.
We always come back.

3356

Pffft. I’d be in no trouble at all!

Because in that kind of world, humanity would’ve been wiped out millennia ago.

3357

Sorry, am bit late. Working on it.

3358

My God, you make such alluring promises.

But be careful about the scope of your judgment on strangers. Weakness of soul is not a malady of mine. You’ll discover that soon enough.

1 Like
3359

Haha-- ah.

My judgments are always tentative things, Ms. Jackal. They shift constantly with new data.

Pretty sure I’m not wrong on this one, though. The performative cruelty and contempt: as a rule, they’re signs of weakness, not of strength, hallmarks of those who fear being seen as weak. It’s a common quality among Blood Raiders, for example.

And ancestors, but you’re loud about it.

Either way, I thank you. It’s been a long time since I’ve had capsuleer targets whose deaths could make me smile, and not feel terrible for having smiled.

Hopefully it’ll be a long, long time 'til we stand down. I’m so looking forward to this.

1 Like
3360

So the traditional ethnic Caldari—Deteis and Civre—groups up in the hinterlands and the mountains of Caldari Prime, who don’t seem to object to being in the Federation, don’t get a say in things?

I mean, I can understand wanting to reclaim a home, but there’s people living there who have as much, if not more, claim to the place: they never left. My Clan faced much the same situation when our blood returned to Mikramurka after the Rebellion, normal population growth meant there were people living in the places we thought of as ‘home’. Tempers flared, harsh words and a few blows were exchanged… and some of us stayed there, with the others, while the Clan itself re-established itself as spacers.

Life fills in the gaps. The Caldari left a big one when they left, but… life still fills in, and if the State forces native Deteis and Civire to abandon their traditional Caldari lifestyle—if the Megas come in as outsiders and force them to abandon being Caldari, in their way—then how is that any less than what the State objects to from Gallente imperialist liberalism?

2 Likes
3361

If the question was about how a Gallente could help a Caldari crisis, Caldari Prime is a symbol, a big one, that would totally shift the focus from whatever the hell was going on. (And consume a lot of energy).

Very unpratical in concrete terms. But ideas, right? They conquer minds and hearts.

If the focus is the diversity that flourished in that beautiful piece of rock, then it is a tricky subject. But again, symbols sometimes are better in the realm of ideas, and the practicalities are conveniently left aside.

I do not know how much of a thorny subject it is for you or your people, so please bear with my ignorance, but perhaps it would be a situation not dissimilar welcoming back the Starkmanir.

What to do when your kin is back, but changed, sometimes beyond recognition?

Are their features that matter? Their blood? The shared culture? Their will to return? Our will for their return?

Every group will have their own answers, and within the group, many opinions.

With all the ARC rescue operation situation, it crossed my mind how would the Caldari welcome their own back.

Would they do it with open arms? With contempt, because they should have fought till the end to defend their planets, no matter the cost? Would they forbid them to return, or segregate them after all the relevant information was extracted?

I do not kow. Really don’t.

And that with the non plasmidic-proven-something Caldari. Whatever they are changing into now, or have already become… shivers.

1 Like
3362

there’s people living there who have as much, if not more, claim to the place: they never left.

I agree with this whole heartedly.

My parents weren’t native, but found a life on Caldari Prime. I was born and raised there and call it my home. I didn’t leave until they were killed by Heth’s Provists.

Caldari Prime is home to more people than just those in State calling it theirs.

1 Like
3363

No, they really don’t. They only open doors, and only when things can remain abstract. As soon as the ‘ideas’ lead to ‘so you have to bleed’ or ‘so you have less money for food’ or ‘so you’re going to be inconvenienced in the tiniest of ways’, you lose those hearts and minds.

Results are what win them.

The Starkmanir were welcomed back with open arms and celebration. They’re kin we thought lost, who returned to us out of darkness. Do they still bear the marks of that darkness? Of course, but then, so do we all, in different ways. But let’s keep something in mind here:

It is not the traditional Deteis and Civire on Caldari Prime who have changed. It is the Caldari of the State who left, and have now attempted to return, changed perhaps beyond recognition (I don’t know, you’d have to ask one of those traditionalists if they recognize the Caldari-ness in the State).

The question about the State isn’t ‘how would the Caldari welcome their own back’, because the traditionalist Caldari on Caldari Prime never left. They don’t have to ‘come back’.

The question is: how can the State reconcile the Caldari value of ‘mind your own business, outsider’ while forcing Caldari to conform to the governmental and societal structures of outsiders?

How Megacorporate Caldari treat those rescued from Pochven is a completely separate issue. If there’s contempt for those individuals, then the State undermines its own objection to the Gallente prisons: If civilians should have fought to the death to defend their planets, no matter the cost, then how much more shameful is it for professional soldiers to have been taken alive, and not fought to the death?

3364

Just out of curiosity, how much time has to pass before “Life fills in the gaps” trumps “This used to be our sovereign territory and we’re entitled to have it back”?

One year? Ten? A generation?

Asking for a friend!

3365

A good question. For some, immediately. For others, never. For everyone else? Somewhere in between, with no hard and fast formula.

We are, after all, a most self-destructive species. We love nothing so much as killing one another.

3 Likes
3366

You disarmed my snark with a thoughtful response. Well played, Matari Bee.

3367

The Caldari people are quite resilient to hardships when it comes to the benefit of the group, even if it is an abstract one, for quite some time.

There was a lot of blood involved on the retaking of Caldari Prime, we offered most of our armed forces for it. A huge economic cost. And most certainly a lot of inconvenience.

And yet, we did it, without thinking twice.

As the Elder Fleet did not think twice to attack Yulai to rescue their own.

Single mindedness is a beautiful thing to see sometimes, even when some causes are not meant to last.

The Tengu presents the state of mind in a manner i find beautiful.

When we first saw the flock, we were surrounded, caught in a spectacle of stimuli. Brilliant colors, dancing lights, beautiful cacophonies, wafting ambrosia. Those birds surrounded us, each one a different shape, an altered species, a new wonder. I tried to follow a single bird, but my efforts were futile: Transformation is natural to their existence. Imagine it: an undulating mass, a changing mob, all those beasts partaking in wonderful transmogrification.

These were our augurs, our deliverers, our saviors. Standing amidst the flock, we should have feared their glory; instead, we drew hope. This moment is the first time I understood what it meant to be Caldari: Divinity in the flock, delivery in flux, one being, many changes.

  • Janto Sitarbe, The Legendary Flock

It warms my heart to listen to it. I can not say the same would happen in our culture. Some can be quite rigid about the duties one must carry, even if it costs their lives, their clan or their home.

“Oh, so while still having conditions to fight, you left your post and decided to come here? Here, have some tea”

Our concepts of group are not very friendly to individuals. Even the cut throat practices of the Megas are, in a way, beneficial to the whole.

I’m sorry, could you reformulate the question? The last part got me confused.

There are different types of death, but there are those with honor and those without.

There are situations where one can not (or will not) take its own life, and lives in shame.

But one thing is to handle things among peers, the other is to have it happen with outsiders. The Gallente POW facilities probably are making it hard or impossible for one to take it’s own life, and some may be resisting out of spite, waiting for an opportunity to strike back.

I have not seen a formal objection to the Gallente prisions from the CEP, if you have the statement please show. Strike Commander @Diana_Kim on the other hand, have several things to say and do about it.

And civilian is a… complicated term when a group of people is kinda always ready to fight and all citizens must complete compulsory basic military training during adolescence. (I have a feeling that they are kicking ass in the proving)

Anyway, we doing shady stuff among ourselves is different than outsiders doing it to us.

Me, my sister, and my cousin against the outsiders perhaps.

3368

Try the kind where you want a spoon in one hand and a fork in the other for more intensive shoveling.

3369

‘Without thinking twice’ is, I think, something of a massive misnomer, considering the power-politics Heth had to play just to get to where he could launch that invasion.

And the Elder Fleet were not a civilian population.

The Starkmanir had no such duty, especially not centuries after their planet was reduced to volcanic ash. It would be like claiming that the great-great-grandchildren of soldiers have an obligation to carry out the soldier’s final mission.

For the traditionalist Caldari still on Caldari Prime, the Megacorporate society and government structure of the State is foreign. It is something that has developed elsewhere, by people who are likely seen as outsiders to their 100% not-influenced by interstellar society Caldari way of life.

They are more Caldari than the State.

Perhaps, but when you have people who are probably five or six decades removed from that training… yeah. Civilians.

Yes, but the traditionalists on Caldari Prime aren’t ‘yourselves’. You are outsiders, to them.

3370

Refering to Single mindedness. Of course people think and do things between point A and B.

If ones family would like to reclaim their honor… There are some people with weird traditions and a very very very long memory here.

As far as i recall from history lessons, we had corporations while in the federation and the lifestyle was not that different.

Are you claiming that the Caldari think a location surpasses blood or tradition? Or that Raata are more Caldari than the Caldari?

I’m confused.

If a Thukker leaves for years and return, they are no longer as Thukker as the Thukker that stayed behind?

Would the ones that left and remember old customs be lesser than the ones who stayed and changed them?

And who are imposing what on whom? The ones who left or the ones who stayed?

They are still available for duty. (Not quite ready, but available)

Why?

3371

I’m not privy to the discussions obviously but pretty sure they thought more than twice. Revealing that project at that point was not at all an uncomplicated decision without consequences.

3372

Culture doesn’t sit still. There’ve been five centuries of divergent development. Yes, the interstellar Caldari’s ways will be foreign.

Because the Caldari are an insular people. Small, backwoods settlements that hold to old traditions tend to be even more insular. You come from outside that group, you are an outsider.

3373

Your perspective is always a welcome one for me, and if it were someone else, it is a public forum, so please, do join.

“Thinking twice” did not achieve the intended communicational concept and produced more noise than expected, please scrap it.

The single mindedness mentioned was a reference to the employment of 90% of our armed forces to get the Caldari homeplanet back. (Mine is Saisio III, and we have our own… challenges with Suuve, even if we never left).

90%

This is not to boast our people nor diminish others efforts, but when one goes pretty much all in into something, it speaks something about their resolve, no matter the consequences, the aftermath or political repercussions.

That is one of the things i like about the Heth Era. Single mindedness into one direction is a Leviathan in power crushing obstacles. On the other hand however, it becomes a stubbornness that may interfere a lot with the results, hence the part i did not like of the Heth era.

But that? That was ok in my book.

By no means i am saying that it does not change. Perhaps it is a cultural difference that i am not finding the middle ground to understand your perspective in an adequate manner so i can make a proper communication, and for this i apologize.

Maybe an example might best convey certain things.

There is at least one certain regional language that i know of, that changed a lot through a couple of centuries. (Convergence with the main language, political prohibition, beign considered a dialect, centralized educational curriculum, lots of things…). Today it is spoken mainly by elders, and is still alive in poems, plays and other art manifestations.

Some people from that location emigrated way back, and recently we have discovered that the “original” language is still preserved over that location. (Any similarity with natural selection and mutational pressure may not be a coincidence, damn nature, you scary).

What happened with that?

Some elders, still remembering the persecution of their ancestral language, are not teaching it to their younglings. Some branches of the mega corp have spent quite some money to have a standardised communication and do not teach it as a second language.

However, there are a lot of revitalization efforts made to reverse this language shift. Other elders keep traditions alive, and the newfound “old” language is being absorved, and making a comeback, invigorating the arts and culture associated with it.

Why this example?

I am not privy to the perspectives of the residents of Caldari Prime, too many interactions and cultural shifts with all the Gallente, the martial law, district segregations and the aftermath.

But a Caldari knows a Caldari.

Tradition, memory, ancestry. Your family and their name are more important than yourself.

Things done, and undone, echo trough the ages, for better or worse.

While i think i can see your perspective, it does not make much sense for us to consider one of our own an outsider, not matter how insular, small or something. Be it the ones that stayed and changed, be it the ones who left and did not change.

It is known

(There are the non-entity, but those are complicated)

If the answer did not meet your expectations or did not explain in a convenient manner, i apologize.

3374

Tradition, memory, ancestry. Your family and their name are more important than yourself.

Of course they are. This is a thing almost all of us agree on, I think. Even the Amarr. But five centuries is plenty of time for traditions and family to be other than what they were.

I told you about my Clan’s return and reconstitution after the Rebellion. They were taken, against their will, from their home, and those who chose to adhere to the ways of the people they found when they returned… were welcomed. The ones who did not, who sought to preserve what they could of what faulty memories and unreliable legends made of their old ways, their old lives… left, and they are not now of those people who live where we used to live.

Megacorporate Caldari, the ones who left, the families that left, chose to leave. They chose to leave and go elsewhere, to be someone else. Just as the Stjörnauga are no longer natives of the steppe near the southern slopes of Ísfaðir, those families and names who left are no longer of that place, and those people. Because they chose to be other, and elsewhere. They could have remained, and kept to the ways of that people, but they rejected that choice, and those people who did not choose as they did.

So I would not be at all surprised if those who remained see them as outsiders… because they chose to be.