Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

I’ll just go ahead and take you both off the list of potential moderators.

Congratulations

So much for that willing to discuss then, I guess.

It is hardly surprising that your response to the charge of Minmatar collusion contains its own accusation of heresy. Indeed, many loyal Imperial subjects have recently met their gruesome end as a consequence of such accusations leveled by their peers, vying for power. You attempt to wield the word “heretic” as your both an inquisitorial spear to supplant your fellow subjects and an impenetrable shield against their chastisement. I answer to the throne, not to you. The decision of what flavor of threat against our empire I need concern myself with is also categorically not yours to make. I’m a proud member of the Empire’s Militia and servant of the throne, charged primarily with furthering imperial interests in Metropolis and Bleak Lands. However, as the Gallente have now learned, the Imperial Militia is perfectly capable of deploying outside of our current theater of war to combat the enemies of the Empire and to further her interests. When whispers of Minmatar treachery reach my ears, it is a call to action. When the Empire calls, CTRLV will answer.

We who toil in service of the throne grow increasingly concerned of your careless words. You dare speak to me of heresy while insinuating that collusion with minmatar loyalists to defend their structures is an act explicitly sanctioned by the throne? The conflict in which Triglavians attempted (successfully on occasion) to abscond with our stars has concluded. I am not aware of a decree stating that the Empire’s subjects should feel free to collude with minmatar loyalists and help them secure their objectives so long as these subjects make noises about EDENCOM and the greater good. I tell you what though, why don’t we see what the throne actually has to say about this? Surely such a request for clarification is unnecessary. After all, you wouldn’t dare risk falsely representing the Empress’ position on this matter as a consequence of assumption, would you?

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I assure no one in PIE and/or LUMEN has helped us secure “our” objectives. The objectives we have co-operated on have been strictly in the scope of Edencom goals, or in defense of assets directly used in such operations. The four nations still believe in Edencom and the resistance is still going on - on the anniversary of our successful defense, we again heard the call to keep on contributing for that cause.

It would no doubt suit you if Edencom did no longer exist. Worry not; I assure you there are those under the Lux Invicta collaboration who wish that same to be the case, so you are not alone. First step towards wisdom is facing the facts, though: Edencom exists and calls to capsuleers to support it exist. Not as mandatory, of course - we are independent capsuleers - but as an honorable option. This is true both in the Empire and the Republic, and also in the Federation and the State.

(Also, when I need help with co-operating with our other objectives, there’s… allies both less controversial and much likelier to agree to help, for that.)

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Some time ago I formed a fleet in Amarr FW space for combat. I was contacted directly by a member of LUMEN who informed me that should I attack a local EM staging structure (in Amarr lowsec), they would be forced to descend upon my forces with a combined fleet of both EM and LUMEN.

In light of these facts, would you care to amend your assertion?

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Not really.

But maybe next time I need extra help, I’ll ask them anyhow.

Everyone makes mistakes. We all mispeak or misremember from time to time. The innumerable deaths and reincarnations that we endure as capsuleers sometimes confuse memories once clear as crystal. I judge a capsuleer’s integrity not by their capacity to avoid mistakes entirely, but how they respond when their mistake is brought to light.

If you speak falsehoods and stand by them even when revealed as such, why should anyone pay your thoughts any mind? If I can abandon my bosboger-centric disinformation misadventure as a failure, surely humility would permit you to concede your own minor misteps.

To be more serious about this than my previous quip about asking help from friends in low places since they seem so willing to give it (they are not), commenting on this further would require me to divulge information that is not mine to expose.

Said information makes you technically correct that such a contact occurred, I give you that much.

It does not take away from the fact that Edencom-aligned international co-operation is entirely legitimate in all four nations, no matter how much you (or anyone else) wishes it was not so.

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A fair perspective. My thoughts are these: On one hand, I do not seek to undermine EDENCOM’s capacity to combat the Triglavian menace. On the other hand, using the EDENCOM banner as a a blank check for frequent and open collaboration with enemies of the Empire is not, I think, what was intended. I am but an instrument of the throne, and thus the answers to such questions are not mine to give. I will seek clarification on this matter from an Imperial authority.

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Good that no one’s doing any such thing, then.

As a member of LUMEN who’s occasionally collaborated with your very alliance. I remember dropping and losing an Apostle with your alliance (and your friends like Templis Calsf and the “Rekking Crew” entity) to defend (unsuccesfully) a Minmatar aligned Azbel against Snuffed Out.

Also working with the same Minmatars and a group of pirates (“Cruisers Crew” I believe) dropping on Dock Workers mining operations throughout the warzone. Cooperating pretty closely I might add. Firebon Orlenard and you seemed buddy-buddy there for a while.

I did get briefed on that leak you alluded to. That’s what it was BTW, a leak. Sorry Else. LUMEN would not have dropped to hit on you, I can assure you that, at the time it would probably have been my call to make if we had. But there were 30 other bored pilots sitting on that bridge in everyshore once you removed LUMEN. Bored because the fight they were going to got cancelled due to a no show… By Dock Workers.

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Brother, as always, you speak truthfully and with honour. Indeed, your contributions and comradeship are sorely missed by me personally, and by the militia at large.

Tis true, CTRLV has collaborated with Minmatar on several occasions to combat pirate entities who’s forces could not be matched by Amarr or Minmatar forces alone. Minmatar and Amarr loyalists alike criticized this arrangement, apparently suggesting we face certain defeat alone rather than attempt to prevail together. However, the passage of time provides a unique perspective - and I must say after several such ill-conceived collaborations with Minmatar forces, our allies who advised caution were correct. The Minmatar are treacherous as they are cunning, and not to be underestimated.

The same flavor of scenario of collaboration that existed between CTRLV and minmil also existsed in the collaboration between Minmatar and Amarr acting through EDENCOM to combat Triglavian forces. I do not contest the legitimacy of this endeavor during the invasion. However, with the conclusion of the triglavian invasion, I question the degree to which this collaboration is approved by the throne. I also find the notion that any Amarr that harbors suspicions over the legitimacy of this arrangement is teetering on heresy… as… potentially heretical itself, contingent on the true position of the throne, which I will formally beseech for clarification.

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I can see your point with regards to the continuation of collaboration in Pochven. At the moment, my understanding of the Amarr position is that EDENCOM is still legitimate… But take that with a grain of salt, after all I’m just a Caldari sell-sword and not a theologian or even an amarrian.

A pronouncement from her majesty would be most welcome as clarification on this issue, though this may not be the most pressing issue for the empire.

Now speaking personally as a Caldari. Any excuse to shoot a triglavian or kybernaut is a good one, no matter how thin. I lost too many, the State has lost too much, for any forgiveness.

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A fantastic question.

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Of course it is, though justifying the tactical subordination of Imperial subjects to foreign, hostile officers by Her Most Sublime and Imperial Majesty’s wise and prescient support of strategic cooperation by way of EDENCOM is disingenuous at best.

What conclusion?

An invasion conludes when the invaders are sent back to the Abyss from whence they came or when diplomatic agreements are made that create a new normal. Not when the invaders pause their offensive.

As long as Triglavians still occupy our stars, the invasion is not over.

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Perhaps I lack the appropriate level of understanding of international affairs possessed by many of my more learned peers and superiors here on this Summit, but given the lack of any sort of statement by the Throne disavowing EDENCOM or denouncing the threat of the Triglavian Collective, I confess I find myself confused as to why one would believe the Throne would have changed its views on capsuleer collaboration under the EDENCOM banner. Indeed, recent reporting by The Scope states that the budget for EDENCOM was recently agreed with its anti-Triglavian mandate underwritten. Now, this article doesn’t detail the exact details of how that budget was agreed, but I find it hard to believe that any CONCORD institution, let alone one of such import, would receive a funding agreement without Holy Amarr’s support. Especially when the organisation’s Provost Martial (themselves a known loyal supporter of Amarr) then vowed to ‘recover and restore lost worlds’ in a speech during the recent invasion memorials.

I have no doubt that if the Throne’s views on EDENCOM or the Collective were to change, we’d know about it in no uncertain terms. I also have no doubt than in such an event, Khimi Harar would adjust its stance and relationships with capsuleer organisations loyal to those entities appropriately in deference to the wishes of the Empress and the Privy Council. In the meantime, however, it is enitrely reasonable to assume that the Empire still considers an entity that annexed a multitude of its systems only a year ago to still be a significant threat, and the entity it jointly founded to combat that threat and recently agreed continued funding for to be a valid one. Following from that, it would seem entirely reasonable to assume that capsuleer-led cooperation in support of the EDENCOM initiative remains endorsed by the Throne, again, until such time as explicitly declared otherwise.

Pertaining to events predating the emergence of the Collective and the founding of EDENCOM, it does appear that Amarr loyalist forces both within and without the militia engaged in cooperative activities with Republic-loyal forces when the benefits of said cooperation were perceived to outweigh the negatives. Indeed, it makes sense; even CONCORD itself is a joint endeavour of cooperation between the Sacred Throne and the former Republic government, amongst others. Commodore Vector, you respectably acknlowledge that your own organisation once engaged in such acts of cooperation with Minmatar forces, though you have since come to consider those collaborations to be ill-conceived. Given this admission, does it not seem somewhat… unfair, to chastise LUMEN for having done the same in times past? I cannot say what the circumstances behind those incidents were - they far predate my own time as a capsuleer, let alone as a member of Khimi Harar - but given that other, clearly Amarr-loyal entities such as your own organisation partook in similar joint-operations with Minmatar forces, it would seem a stretch to use such events from LUMEN’s past as any sort of proof of disloyalty.

My apologies if I speak out of line or above my station here. Many of you enagaged in this conversation are far more qualified to talk about these topics than I am. However, though I have not yet been in the pod for even a year, I must confess that even in this short time I have repeatedly felt that there are some within the ranks of those capsuleers loyal to Holy Amarr that have long since decided that Khimi Harar must be a disloyal organisation, and will try to find any way to paint it as such. Any and all incidents that could paint it as disloyal are brandished around as 'gotcha’s, even when those making the accusations are guilty of similar actions themselves. Legitimate contexts for cooperation with foreign entities, even when explicitly mandated by the Throne, are downplayed to push this narrative. It’s… disheartening.

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It does not, at least to me, seem intuitive that the funding of a CONCORD command to oversee strategic cooperation in the repulsion of Triglavian invasions should constitute the Throne’s support in subordinating yourselves to Electus Matari.

To conflate those things is, as you adequately put… disheartening.

Harboring suspicions is neither here nor there, you can think whatever you like. It is when you act on those thoughts by daring to make public accusations against loyalists with far longer histories of service to Amarr than your own that you cross a line. You have now done this repeatedly.

I’ve given you repeated passes on your uncouth behaivior thanks to your background and the work you do in the warzone for Holy Amarr.

If you want to be treated with respect by those of us who have dedicated our entire lives to defending Amarr, and who come from lineages that have done the same, I would suggest you stop lashing out at us like a starving Syrikos Hound.