Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

A well written and delivered argument, but not against a position anyone here has taken I’m afraid.

No, I highly doubt the State or the Tribes lack any kind of certainty in their own ways or ‘faith’ in our cultures. This however is not even remotely close to the points being made here, which lies in intents and what will come in the future. The Tribes have little interest in taking over New Eden, and the State is so famously ironclad in their culture that I doubt they could if they ever wanted to. The Federation certainly would, but in their own chaotic and haphazard cultural way.

The Amarr, alone in New Eden, is religiously, culturally and politically intent - outright and clearly stated so - on cluster domination through any means necessary including conquest. This has nothing to do with the certainty of ones own ways, but about the intent to force it upon everyone else, at any cost, as laid out in your Scriptures, in your politics and your very identity as a nation.

So yes, there’s quite a lot of us in all the other nations that believe in a brighter future, where the Amarr identity has been sufficiently destroyed that something better and less of a threat to all of New Eden can be built in its stead. Until then, you’re simply going to have to live with the fact that your own words, zealotry, culture, politics, religion and actions all say the same thing: We are a threat to you all.

If it comes as any kind of surprise that this is taken at face value, one has to wonder what you actually expected.

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As I said, then: an interesting version of ‘honor’.

There is a difference between having faith and confidence in the ways of one’s people, and believing that all other ways must be extinguished. And that is what spreading your ‘divine order’ means.

If someone tells you ‘I intend to murder you’, it’s generally a good idea to believe them.

Just as there is a difference between hiding from our neighbors, and simply not insisting that our neighbors will eventually need to become our minions… or else.

I personally like and have liked a lot of people that a lot of people probably think I should not over the years and some of whom might be shocked to hear that I do themselves - from the pirate Ethan Verone to Admiral Gaven Lok’ri, from my little angel Kalaratiri to the terrorist Harkon Thorson, from the kybernaut Torvik Ironsides to Ishukone loyalist Alexandre Hinkelmann. And there are close allies and even kin that I do not like half as well as they’d deserve - I will refrain from mentioning examples on a public forum, you’ll excuse me.

I do not, sadly, live in a world where personal likes and dislikes matter much. Allegiances matter, loyalties matter. Trust matters.

Liking people and loving them is a nice distraction, a spice to life that would otherwise be dull and without that certain spark.

But I could love you and I could hate you, and it would not really change anything, except the kind of pain the emotion brings.

Which is it, then?

Would it change anything if you knew?

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What is crime inside Imperial territory is decided by the Imperial authorities, not outsiders.

I have to admit though,I thought Republic was a bit… older, but anyway, please forgive me, we don’t study foreign history a lot, only history and culture we’re usually interested in is our own.

I do understand though the concern of being called ‘Rebel Provinces’, and because I’d consider a gallentean who’d call our State as a ‘rebel province of Federation’ to be overly agressive and those who could claim that Caldari are those who live in the Federation - to be straightforward mentally unwell… YET, to my knowledge, the Empire took this politics only after Minmatar invasion into core Imperial worlds in YC110, before that they were seeking peace and coexistence according to their doctrine of Pax Amarria.

And that they called you ‘rebel provinces’ just means that the days of the Republic might end quite soon…

Well, we aren’t minmatars to become slaves to the Federation, Honorable death in combat is preferrable.

Yet, you see where the difference is:
In the conflict that started YC110 we are protecting ourselves against the Federal aggression and we’re fighting to get our Home back (Caldari Prime), which now is still partially occupied by gallentean invaders.
In the same conflict that started YC110 between Empire and Republic it were actually Empire who are protecting themselves against the Minmatar aggression.

Yes, I know, the Empire invaded the Republic thousan years ago - but that was thousand years ago.

And even the rebellion happened 143 years ago - you won it, you shall cherish your land, not seek new conflicts with neighbors. Just like we won our Independence from gallenteans 200 years ago - we weren’t touching them until they began ramming their nyxes into our peaceful stations, even while they were holding our Homeworld a hostage. We were trying to trade for it in a peaceful way.

With the level of mental gymnastics this woman goes through every day, I’m sure she’d be an instant Mind Clash champion.

How many solar systems have the Minmatar whisked away from the State into an alternate dimension where they perform biological experiments on State Citizens, again? Please clarify this matter for me.

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If you’re another pretender to steal a crown of stupidity from arrendis, please do that without involving me into your competitions.

Thanks in advance.

That’s an insult, not an answer. Please answer my question and do not dodge.

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They have been more open about it since Catiz. But no, they did not really ever stop using that moniker.

And why should they? From their perspective, we are the rebel provinces, and it will take much longer than a generation or two of Holders for that to pass. I prefer the honesty.

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I could imagine a session of CONCORD inner circle with Imperial representative starting their speech with:
“And greetings also to the representative of our Rebel Provinces. Today lets discuss how to get you back into the fold.”
Wasn’t really happening, was it? :smiley:
On the other hand, I believe I heard Minmatar abassador actually was bringing into the discussion the topic of Imperial slavery. Imperial. Slavery. Inside Empire, not Republic. By representative of the Republic, not the Empire… great, huh? And I believe that also happened right before the Elder invasion.

Something like that happens all the time. The Empire has, in fact, already divided Minmatar territories among its great Houses.

Usually in the diplomatic chambers it is more veiled, but even the little glimpses to the dances the Inner Circle does around this that we as the general public get are something to behold, so it must be quite the show behind closed doors.

It is what it is, and I doubt there is anyone on any higher diplomatic levels, on either side, who does not know this.

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It isnt just in the Empire. They still launch slaving operations into the Republic to this day. I’ve foiled a few of them

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I heard a State leader talk about claims to a Federation planet in the Luminaire system. Inside the Federation, not the State. That happened right before the Invasion of Caldari Prime. Sounds like you should be ranting about how horrible Heth was, too.

Please don’t start Diana on her hero-worship of Heth. Some of us would like to retain our dinners…

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A correct version I find.

If I saw someone trip and fall on a live grenade meant for me and die in the process saving my own life I would say that is unfortunate for them, but fortunate for me. I would not feel honoured because there was no intention to save my life beyond happenstance. I would not attribute motive or intent over an accident.

By the same token I would not attribute motive or intent that just because Republic actions are fortuitous for the State that there was a desire to act in the interests of the State, and which was not just the result of happenstance.

However, if the Republic wants a meaningful relationship with the State then they should take steps to do so. For me it is interesting to compare the Imperial relationship towards the State which has always been in good faith, respectful, honest, and beneficial for both parties materially to Minmatar who so far in my dialogue with them have only tried to play on fear, goad, and imply debts of honour – all of which I would consider coercive attempts.

If the Republic and Minmatar want to demand everything, but offer nothing in return I do not see what interest the State could possibly have in changing the present status quo.

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A very self-serving version, I find. And honor is not, generally, self-serving. Honor places demands upon the honorable. It doesn’t, as a rule, go looking for or offering excuses. It restricts behavior, adds burdens and obligations, and generally acts to impede the attitude of ‘I am willing to watch others die if it benefits me’.

If I saw someone trip and fall on a live grenade meant for me, and die in the process, I would go and find that person’s family and offer them my deepest condolences and gratitude. And I would make it very clear that if they ever had need of me, I would answer that need. My life, at that point, only continues because their loved one does not.

Has it? Would you consider someone smiling and telling you ‘I am your friend’ while planning to kill you and enslave your children to be acting in good faith, then?

Do you consider all conversation about topics where people disagree to be coercive? Tell me, how do you convey to someone ‘this is not good for you, and will harm you in the long run’ in a non-coercive way? As for implied debts of honor… you were the one who framed things in terms of sacrifice.

By doing so, you were the one who implied a debt of honor. I’ve simply been discussing the matter with you so that I can properly understand you, and highlight what I consider to be the flaws in your position for others who might be observing. I have absolutely no illusions about a member of an Amarr-loyalist corporation’s willingness to actually consider the potential danger the Amarr Empire represents, let alone think that discussing such matters with you could ever influence the State’s policy-makers.

Frankly, they don’t give a rancid fedo fart about us or our opinions.

And pray, what demand has been made? Hm?

A suggestion has been made that perhaps the State would be better off, overall, aligned with the Republic and not the Empire. However, part and parcel of that is the Republic no longer being aligned with the Federation, but rather actively standing ready to defend the State against the Fed. And, as has been pointed out, should the Fed attack the State, the Empire would still feel compelled to assist in the defense, lest the Federation’s power come to outstrip their own. So I fail to see how there is any kind of ‘demand everything, but offer nothing in return’.

So again, please, demonstrate how anything has been demanded, with nothing offered.

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It does yes, however the demands of honour also require agency and choice – one can choose to act honourably or dishonourably – and so the intention behind choices also matter. There is no intention in accidents, for the nature of an accident is that they were beyond the conscious decision of those involved.

In going to war with the Empire the Republic has made no claim that it was out of a desire to defend Caldari lives, it was out of their own self-interest. They did not choose to act honourably towards Caldari, even if in so doing their own self-interest provides some utility to the State.

If I had evidence an ertswhile friend was planning to kill me and enslave my children I would say they were not acting in good faith towards. I would need evidence of such before making such accusations however.

I did use the term sacrifice because I was being glib. I am no position to ask the Minmatar to make sacrifices on my own behalf, however if by their own choices their deaths serve a purpose for the State then I am satisfied for them to make those choices.

I see nothing wrong with the status quo that has existed for the past century under CONCORD. While I can admit there’s always the potential for more militant segments of the Amarr Empire to promote war against the State in the absence of the Republic or Federation; there is equally a chance for the Federation and Republic together seeking war against the State in the absence of the Amarr Empire.

As such the best position for the State right now in my view would be seeking to maintain interstellar affairs as they are and have been.

Any alliance between the State and Republic would at the very least require there to be the building of rapport between both sides and presently I don’t see the political leadership on either side having much will to do so.

Caldari Prime IS Caldari homeworld, you twit. I can’t believe anyone doesn’t know that still, even names show so. Caldari Prime. Caldari State. Can you see that? Do you need to compare each letter?..
Moron.

Yes, the intentions behind your choice. My honor does not depend upon your intentions, save in restricting my responses. If you do me ill, you do me ill. If you do me well, you do me well.

And yet, you close your eyes to the evidence from their own mouths and scriptures.

You were. And I advised against such. Everything beyond that has been a discussion of your philosophy, not an attempt to sway you at all.

That’s nice. But once again, you were the one who indicated there were demands being made. I’d like you to support that. Or were you simply being glib again?