Ah, so no more mentions of honesty and working in good faith?
The herdsman is always friendly toward the cow, until it comes time for the slaughterhouse.
I have already mentioned Amarrian honesty and good faith in their relations with the State, I felt no need to re-iterate in favour of mentioning other aspects of the Imperial-State alliance considered pertinent.
1 Like
And already had that very statement refuted based on evidence from the Amarr themselves, leaving the matter an open question. I note that through all of this, not one of the Amarr capsuleers has spoken up to say Iâm wrong. At most, @Amicia_Cora threw some straw men about to try to confuse the issue. But actually refuting the Empireâs long-term intentions toward the State? Perhaps some might be staying quiet because itâs not their discussion. One or two, because they donât want to engage with me. But all of them? Perhaps you should consider what that means.
And so demonstrating that, in addition to self-serving, your view of honor appears to be⌠extremely transactional.
I have seen no evidence that attacks upon the State constitute current government policy of the Amarr Empire. I have however seen assertions from Minmatar such as yourself that the Amarr Empire will attack the State in the absence of either the Federation or the Republic which I consider speculation. There exists no one who is prescient so there is no one who can give certainties on the future. I prefer to base my judgement on the realities of the present and not on the basis of what amounts to speculative fiction of the future.
I would say it is the nature of international agreements between sovereign powers to be transactional in nature as they are a manifestation of self-interest. Honour would be involved in that once agreeing to a treaty with another, one seeks to abide by it. As such, so long as the Empire honours its agreements and treaties with the State then so should the State honour its agreements and treaties with the Empire.
2 Likes
Youâve also seen no claims that attacking the State is the âcurrent government policyâ of the Amarr Empire. So congratulations on jumping onto the straw man bandwagon.
Rather, youâve seen statements that are not speculation, detailing the Amarr Empireâs openly stated long-term goals concerning every nation in the cluster, and in fact, beyond the New Eden cluster, as well. Those statements have been supported with evidence, once again, directly from what can be seen as the Amarr Empireâs highest body of laws: divine scripture. And, again, not a single one of the numerous Amarr capsuleers on this board has come forward to challenge statements like this one:
The Amarr Empireâs long-term goals include the complete subjugation of all of humanity, and the obliteration of all cultures that are not Amarr, including the Caldari.
That is not speculation. And none of them will challenge that one, either.
Calling into question the honesty and good faith of the Amarr Empireâs current arrangement with the State does not require active planning of an imminent attack. That the Amarr intend to eventually subjugate you all and force the Caldari people to conform to the ways and beliefs of Amarr fits the analogy that I provided: smiling and telling you âI am your friendâ while planning to enslave your children. And that remains the case no matter how many times you attempt to deflect the issue into things nobody claimed.
The Amarr Empire intends to see the Caldari people no longer practice the ways of their ancestors, but rather to adhere to the ways of the Amarr, and they are willing to use force to achieve this, if need be. That, too, is not speculation. And that, too, will not be challenged by a single one of the Amarr capsuleers. They may obfuscate, as you have done, and attempt to cast the matter as a claim of immediate intention⌠but that will be a lie, as no-one has said the Empireâs immediate intention is to see that achieved. Only that it is their intention. A ruling class that measures their lifespan in centuries can be patient, without ever once wavering in their implacable intent.
I am sure, though, that youâll continue to decry âspeculationâ, so⌠I invite you to demonstrate what part of my statements regarding the Empireâs intentions are, in fact, speculation.
2 Likes
All that I have seen presented as evidence of the following:
Is a few cherry-picked quotes from Amarrian Scriptures. Given the scope and breadth of the Amarr Scripture I think it quite an easy thing to have a selective reading, or to quote out of context, to justify any position one could want as presumably being the word of God.
This is why, as I understand it, the Amarr Empire has the clerics and scholars of the Theology Council to establish Scriptural interpretation and orthodoxy. If somewhere it is made explicit by a government institution of the Amarr Empire such as the Theology Council that Amarr adherents of their rite are obligated to conduct the âcomplete subjugation of all humanityâ as you put it, then I will take that under consideration in the context of the Caldari relationship with the Empire.
3 Likes
Given that the scope and breadth of the Amarr Scriptures is, according to Amarr scholars like @Gaven_Lok_ri and many others, more than the sum total of words spoken by the inhabitants of a random small town over a century, there is no way that any reference to the Scriptures could not be considered âcherry-pickedâ.
However, it is also important to remember that the references Iâve given you are ones often-quoted by the Amarr themselves. And, once again, not a single one of them has even attempted to deny the thing you are so desperate to discredit.
Ask them. Ask them publicly. Ask @Lunarisse_Aspenstar. Hell, Iâll do it for you. Letâs see if sheâll even answer.
@Lunarisse_Aspenstar, @Gaven_Lok_ri, @Arline_Kley, @Mitara_Newelle, @Amicia_Cora : Do the Amarr have a divine mandate to bring all of humanity under the Imperial Throne?
Heck, letâs up the ante here a little: @Olacar_xer_Sarum, if youâve got time (I understand that youâre a busy man, what with being the direct representative of a Royal Heir), same question.
Letâs see if any of them will deny it. After all, they might surprise me, and be willing to deny God, here in public. But I doubt it.
And, just to be clear on this:
No, your efforts to once again re-direct and deflect were not unnoticed. But at least now that youâve been directly called out to actually demonstrate the âspeculationâ, and failed to do so, youâve dropped that line of nonsense.
Of course the Amarr hope that in time all of Godâs children will be one.
Godâs time, of course, is a quite a different scale than ours.
All I do is in witness for, and in service of, my Faith.
So we try to spread the Good Word. Sometimes it falls on deaf ears.
But God works on his timescale, not mine, and not everyone can be saved.
As for what this means to in practice as a member of SFRIM? Ms. Cora said it best:
I donât âdoâ the IGS Arrendis. If you want to talk privately, further, just send me a mail and we can have lunch over beetles and tea.
10 Likes
That reads like a resounding âyesâ to the question whether or not the State will eventually be a target for Reclaiming. Thank you, itâs good that weâre clear on these things.
Would you stop pinging every Amarrian you know? We know you like attention but this is getting silly.
6 Likes
You continue the tradition of arguing against a position no one has taken. Yes, Iâm well aware that youâre open about it, but this doesnât seem to stop some of your more deluded allies from putting blinders on and pretending very hard that this is not the case. This then necessitates clarifying and repeating what really shouldnât have to be at this point. No more, no less.
While those like⌠Iâm not even going to try pronouncing that complicated sneeze of a name⌠very adamantly stick their fingers in their ears and warble the silly little refrain of âsurely the Varg wonât eat my faceâ, weâre rather morally and ethically obligated to point out theyâre at risk of having their face eaten.
And that the Varg is telling them theyâre going to eat their face.
And that the Varg has already eaten a lot of faces.
And that the Varg is licking its lips and drooling.
This is indeed not a âgotchaâ, which ironically displays that our words are indeed poorly understood. Itâs adding more giant glaring neon signs pointing at the Empire, saying it will eat your face. Eventually. What boggles the mind is that this is to this day necessary to do, as outsiders to both the Empire and its more recent victims fervently and blindly proclaim that surely it is not so, while putting on their nightly BBQ sauce face mask.
There are plenty of reasons why capsuleers choose not to respond to you that have nothing to do with the merit of your arguments, love. 
5 Likes
I didnât. Iâd give you the list, but thatâd undermine the intent of not doing it, now wouldnât it?
Already addressed that, too. 
1 Like
Maybe you should go back and actually try to comprehend what I said. In fact, the fact that you havenât tried to hide it is my point. Itâs your ally and alliance-mate who keeps insisting that saying âX is trueâ is speculation and suspect. I donât think of it as a âgotchaâ at all, but rather a âbelieve what they tell youâ.
So, you know, good job again arguing against a bunch of straw men.
3 Likes
This is why you should stick to arguments people have actually made, rather than invent others and then tilt at them. Even in the quotes you provided, âbloody conflictâ is not the starting point of the scale, even if you try to bold your way around that. Willing submission is. So no, your posts are not in fact âappropriate for the topic at handâ so much as theyâre strawmen argumentation.
There really is no pessimism or âinterpretationâ going on. There is simply acknowledging that your nation is, through the words of your Scripture, your leaders, your culture and your actions intent on the subjugation of all of humanity, and the eradication of contrary culture or belief. This includes the State.
There is really nothing more to it, and no matter the argumentative contortions deployed, it isnât going to go away. This isnât âplanting doubtâ, itâs a simple warning about the risks of putting on blinders when it comes to the relations the State has with the Empire. Simple as.
I have never heard of any plans to attack our valued allies in the State, and would be appalled if I did.
And there is seriously no value in quoting pre-space or unchallenged era scripture as predictive of what Amarr will do in future. The Pax Amarria and Pax e Kilizhi Do are both more relevant to the current state of the Empire.
We certainly do believe that at the end of time all things will have been brought back into rightness with God, but there is no proscribed mechanism for this and no set timeframe.
We also have a long history of honoring our agreements and alliances. If the Caldari chose to follow the Khanid or Ammatar path and join the Empire and Faith, we would of course be delighted, but our agreements with them are made without any expectation of such a result.
They have proven honorable allies, and that is worthy of respect.
11 Likes
So are you saying then that your mandate is not to convertâby force if need beâall of humanity?
And no-one has argued that there are current plans to attack the Empire. Amarrâs divine mandate to convert all of humanity, by force if necessary, includes the State. Yes or no?
I was curious on the nature of Imperial religious doctrine regarding their Reclaiming, and I donât think one should ever take claims at face value without at least seeking to inspect them. You mentioned the Empire is compelled by divine law to attack the State, as such if true then there would I think be promulgations and decrees from the Theology Council or the Empress Catiz I stating such since they determine what divine law is.
Only if it contradicted far older divine law. Kittenz and the Theology Council donât have to publish âall the stuff is still what it wasâ decrees, after all.
I will bite and answer. Yes.
Now lets pretend all the other empires would not conquer the rest if they had the means, and create a narrative that Caldari should break their alliance with the Amarr because there is a scenario where one day the Amarr Empire conquers the Caldari. As if there is not a scenario where any other faction or empire would do the same.
Your argument is getting old and you just keep it going.
Maybe they should be friends with the Gallente, they have always been good to them. Or I am sure the Minmatar would be the best of allies, and the Minmatar will help the Caldari destroy the Gallente while fending off the Amarr.
Or, they could join the Gallente and Minmatar and team up on Amarr! What a happy universe that would be afterwards, everyone would live in harmony, the Caldari would be perfectly safe! Everyone lives happily ever after huh?
Hell even Sahara and the Triglavians could be friends with this happy new harmonious cluster, being that everyone but the Amarr are so innocent and just a bunch of peace loving creatures.