Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

My politics are indeed situational.

I would love to live in a cluster where I did not have to care about anyone but the Sebiestor Tribe, and even then rarely of anyone outside Sundsele. Where when we came under multiple threats we’d simply fight all of them, on our own, and win.

Just as I don’t live in a cluster where it matters who I like or not, I do not live in a cluster where I can just draw hard lines like you suggest, and refuse to ever co-operate with anyone I find the least bit distasteful.

I want my people to live. Preferably, I want them to live free. And for that end I have just one immutable policy: “whatever it takes, never again another Long Night”.

Yes, it means I am with Edencom now. But it is not like I am Edencom by primary loyalty. I lead the SoERR, and I’ve grown to share some of the Sisters’ beliefs, but I am not SoE. I am Shaninn, Rhiannon, Sebiestor, and in a mutable cluster what I do to protect those loyalties depends, indeed, on the situation.

The alternate timeline where we aligned with the Collective to shoot Amarr first is only a hair’s breadth away from this one. It might still be this one, in the future.

You want to see hypocrisy in that. You set up a standard of immutability, you want to base politics on who is whose sworn enemy, you want me to show “consistency” by always attacking everyone I’ve ever said I’m opposed to. But those are your standards, not mine.

And it’s not like this is something I’m exactly trying to hide from anyone, ally or foe. I am willing to make temporary truces and mutable alliances, and I will always put the security of the free tribes first. People will use that, absolutely. The Amarr, the Feds, the more anti-capsuleer factions in Thera. Does not matter to me. It goes both ways.

As they say, sue me.

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No I was not being glib. I would say I conflated the position as I saw it of Minmatar commentators trying to change my position as a policy stance of the Republic on the whole. An error on my part.

Then it would seem your comparison between the ‘honest’ ‘good faith’ relations with a nation that calls itself your friend, while telling its own people that everyone who is not of Amarr must be brought to heel, and a nation that demands everything, but offers nothing, is fatally flawed on more or less every point, doesn’t it?

I would say the State alliance with the Empire has provided strategic and economic benefits for the past century. The Empire has invested militarily and economically in the interests of the State in order to strengthen its friendship with the Caldari people.

I can only judge the Empire on what it has actually done, and to that end it has always been friendly towards the State.

While I can understand the Minmatar have a different experience of the Amarr, it is not one shared by Caldari.

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Ah, so no more mentions of honesty and working in good faith?

The herdsman is always friendly toward the cow, until it comes time for the slaughterhouse.

I have already mentioned Amarrian honesty and good faith in their relations with the State, I felt no need to re-iterate in favour of mentioning other aspects of the Imperial-State alliance considered pertinent.

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And already had that very statement refuted based on evidence from the Amarr themselves, leaving the matter an open question. I note that through all of this, not one of the Amarr capsuleers has spoken up to say I’m wrong. At most, @Amicia_Cora threw some straw men about to try to confuse the issue. But actually refuting the Empire’s long-term intentions toward the State? Perhaps some might be staying quiet because it’s not their discussion. One or two, because they don’t want to engage with me. But all of them? Perhaps you should consider what that means.

And so demonstrating that, in addition to self-serving, your view of honor appears to be… extremely transactional.

I have seen no evidence that attacks upon the State constitute current government policy of the Amarr Empire. I have however seen assertions from Minmatar such as yourself that the Amarr Empire will attack the State in the absence of either the Federation or the Republic which I consider speculation. There exists no one who is prescient so there is no one who can give certainties on the future. I prefer to base my judgement on the realities of the present and not on the basis of what amounts to speculative fiction of the future.

I would say it is the nature of international agreements between sovereign powers to be transactional in nature as they are a manifestation of self-interest. Honour would be involved in that once agreeing to a treaty with another, one seeks to abide by it. As such, so long as the Empire honours its agreements and treaties with the State then so should the State honour its agreements and treaties with the Empire.

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You’ve also seen no claims that attacking the State is the ‘current government policy’ of the Amarr Empire. So congratulations on jumping onto the straw man bandwagon.

Rather, you’ve seen statements that are not speculation, detailing the Amarr Empire’s openly stated long-term goals concerning every nation in the cluster, and in fact, beyond the New Eden cluster, as well. Those statements have been supported with evidence, once again, directly from what can be seen as the Amarr Empire’s highest body of laws: divine scripture. And, again, not a single one of the numerous Amarr capsuleers on this board has come forward to challenge statements like this one:

The Amarr Empire’s long-term goals include the complete subjugation of all of humanity, and the obliteration of all cultures that are not Amarr, including the Caldari.

That is not speculation. And none of them will challenge that one, either.

Calling into question the honesty and good faith of the Amarr Empire’s current arrangement with the State does not require active planning of an imminent attack. That the Amarr intend to eventually subjugate you all and force the Caldari people to conform to the ways and beliefs of Amarr fits the analogy that I provided: smiling and telling you ‘I am your friend’ while planning to enslave your children. And that remains the case no matter how many times you attempt to deflect the issue into things nobody claimed.

The Amarr Empire intends to see the Caldari people no longer practice the ways of their ancestors, but rather to adhere to the ways of the Amarr, and they are willing to use force to achieve this, if need be. That, too, is not speculation. And that, too, will not be challenged by a single one of the Amarr capsuleers. They may obfuscate, as you have done, and attempt to cast the matter as a claim of immediate intention… but that will be a lie, as no-one has said the Empire’s immediate intention is to see that achieved. Only that it is their intention. A ruling class that measures their lifespan in centuries can be patient, without ever once wavering in their implacable intent.

I am sure, though, that you’ll continue to decry ‘speculation’, so… I invite you to demonstrate what part of my statements regarding the Empire’s intentions are, in fact, speculation.

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All that I have seen presented as evidence of the following:

Is a few cherry-picked quotes from Amarrian Scriptures. Given the scope and breadth of the Amarr Scripture I think it quite an easy thing to have a selective reading, or to quote out of context, to justify any position one could want as presumably being the word of God.

This is why, as I understand it, the Amarr Empire has the clerics and scholars of the Theology Council to establish Scriptural interpretation and orthodoxy. If somewhere it is made explicit by a government institution of the Amarr Empire such as the Theology Council that Amarr adherents of their rite are obligated to conduct the ‘complete subjugation of all humanity’ as you put it, then I will take that under consideration in the context of the Caldari relationship with the Empire.

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Given that the scope and breadth of the Amarr Scriptures is, according to Amarr scholars like @Gaven_Lok_ri and many others, more than the sum total of words spoken by the inhabitants of a random small town over a century, there is no way that any reference to the Scriptures could not be considered ‘cherry-picked’.

However, it is also important to remember that the references I’ve given you are ones often-quoted by the Amarr themselves. And, once again, not a single one of them has even attempted to deny the thing you are so desperate to discredit.

Ask them. Ask them publicly. Ask @Lunarisse_Aspenstar. Hell, I’ll do it for you. Let’s see if she’ll even answer.

@Lunarisse_Aspenstar, @Gaven_Lok_ri, @Arline_Kley, @Mitara_Newelle, @Amicia_Cora : Do the Amarr have a divine mandate to bring all of humanity under the Imperial Throne?

Heck, let’s up the ante here a little: @Olacar_xer_Sarum, if you’ve got time (I understand that you’re a busy man, what with being the direct representative of a Royal Heir), same question.

Let’s see if any of them will deny it. After all, they might surprise me, and be willing to deny God, here in public. But I doubt it.

And, just to be clear on this:

No, your efforts to once again re-direct and deflect were not unnoticed. But at least now that you’ve been directly called out to actually demonstrate the ‘speculation’, and failed to do so, you’ve dropped that line of nonsense.

Of course the Amarr hope that in time all of God’s children will be one.
God’s time, of course, is a quite a different scale than ours.
All I do is in witness for, and in service of, my Faith.

So we try to spread the Good Word. Sometimes it falls on deaf ears.
But God works on his timescale, not mine, and not everyone can be saved.

As for what this means to in practice as a member of SFRIM? Ms. Cora said it best:

I don’t “do” the IGS Arrendis. If you want to talk privately, further, just send me a mail and we can have lunch over beetles and tea.

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That reads like a resounding “yes” to the question whether or not the State will eventually be a target for Reclaiming. Thank you, it’s good that we’re clear on these things.

Directrix Phonaga has already answered more than adequately, but I will add one more comment here. Specifically, in response to:

and

In light of:

How poorly these words were understood.

We are not hiding or seeking to deny the core of our faith because there is no need to deny it. It is no secret that it is an inherent part of who we are to spread God’s divine order across the cluster, and it is hardly a feat of great intelligence to point out that the Caldari State is part of that cluster. As I said before, it truly is not the ‘gotcha’ that you believe it is to point out that Reclaiming in God’s name is an intractible part of what it means to be Amarr. Especially when the people you are tagging have never really hidden from the fact in the first place:

Yet, international relations are, ultimately, what we make of them. It is worth remembering that Holy Amarr is not, and never has been, a static entity:

And so we can either recognise that our neighbours share differing views to us, and yet still choose to engage with them with faith in ourselves that we can work towards a better future; or we can manifest fear and sow distrust by giving in to our own pessimism.

I can only say that it truly is tragic to see people of such demonstrable intelligence, otherwise so talented, give in to the latter approach. But that is precisely why those of us in Khimi Harar strive to be a light that shines amongst the darkness.

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Would you stop pinging every Amarrian you know? We know you like attention but this is getting silly.

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You continue the tradition of arguing against a position no one has taken. Yes, I’m well aware that you’re open about it, but this doesn’t seem to stop some of your more deluded allies from putting blinders on and pretending very hard that this is not the case. This then necessitates clarifying and repeating what really shouldn’t have to be at this point. No more, no less.

While those like… I’m not even going to try pronouncing that complicated sneeze of a name… very adamantly stick their fingers in their ears and warble the silly little refrain of “surely the Varg won’t eat my face”, we’re rather morally and ethically obligated to point out they’re at risk of having their face eaten.

And that the Varg is telling them they’re going to eat their face.
And that the Varg has already eaten a lot of faces.
And that the Varg is licking its lips and drooling.

This is indeed not a ‘gotcha’, which ironically displays that our words are indeed poorly understood. It’s adding more giant glaring neon signs pointing at the Empire, saying it will eat your face. Eventually. What boggles the mind is that this is to this day necessary to do, as outsiders to both the Empire and its more recent victims fervently and blindly proclaim that surely it is not so, while putting on their nightly BBQ sauce face mask.

There are plenty of reasons why capsuleers choose not to respond to you that have nothing to do with the merit of your arguments, love. :wink:

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I didn’t. I’d give you the list, but that’d undermine the intent of not doing it, now wouldn’t it?

Already addressed that, too. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Maybe you should go back and actually try to comprehend what I said. In fact, the fact that you haven’t tried to hide it is my point. It’s your ally and alliance-mate who keeps insisting that saying ‘X is true’ is speculation and suspect. I don’t think of it as a ‘gotcha’ at all, but rather a ‘believe what they tell you’.

So, you know, good job again arguing against a bunch of straw men.

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