Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

Sure. Looking back, the context within which the topic of the Empire’s goals for the Reclaiming came up in this conversation was the following:

A clear attempt to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of State loyalists; to create an impression within their minds that cooperation with Amarr will lead to their destruction. Ms. Ryuzouji thus replied:

Acknowledging the uncertainty of the future, but nevertheless wishing to act on good faith with hope for a positive future. They were, however, immediately set again upon with comments about how negative outcomes are unavoidable and Amarr will move to destroy them:

The implication being obvious: that good faith engagement with Amarr is folly. It will result in bloody conflict at best, or destruction at worst, because a core tenet of the Amarrian faith is and has been the Reclamation of the cluster.

Thus, contrary to what the responses by yourself and Del’thul claim, my posts were appropriate for the topic at hand. They addressed the fact that, yes, as you pointed out, the long-term goal of the Empire is and has been the Reclamation of a cluster that includes the Caldari State. They then, more importantly, addressed the horrifically pessimistic context within which you have all presented and interpreted that fact in order to plant doubt and fear in the mind of a State citizen about the end-game of positive relations with Amarr.

My posts addressed both the thing you said, and the wider context within which you brought it up.

I will leave this here. There is little benefit to be had in engaging with this conversation any further.

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This is why you should stick to arguments people have actually made, rather than invent others and then tilt at them. Even in the quotes you provided, ‘bloody conflict’ is not the starting point of the scale, even if you try to bold your way around that. Willing submission is. So no, your posts are not in fact ‘appropriate for the topic at hand’ so much as they’re strawmen argumentation.

There really is no pessimism or ‘interpretation’ going on. There is simply acknowledging that your nation is, through the words of your Scripture, your leaders, your culture and your actions intent on the subjugation of all of humanity, and the eradication of contrary culture or belief. This includes the State.

There is really nothing more to it, and no matter the argumentative contortions deployed, it isn’t going to go away. This isn’t ‘planting doubt’, it’s a simple warning about the risks of putting on blinders when it comes to the relations the State has with the Empire. Simple as.

Feel free to substitute ‘bloody conflict’ with ‘willing submission’, or replace the entire line with just ‘will result in negative outcomes for the State’. You know full well that my statement holds regardless.

But even if you don’t, I’m content to let others decide for themselves.

I have never heard of any plans to attack our valued allies in the State, and would be appalled if I did.

And there is seriously no value in quoting pre-space or unchallenged era scripture as predictive of what Amarr will do in future. The Pax Amarria and Pax e Kilizhi Do are both more relevant to the current state of the Empire.

We certainly do believe that at the end of time all things will have been brought back into rightness with God, but there is no proscribed mechanism for this and no set timeframe.

We also have a long history of honoring our agreements and alliances. If the Caldari chose to follow the Khanid or Ammatar path and join the Empire and Faith, we would of course be delighted, but our agreements with them are made without any expectation of such a result.

They have proven honorable allies, and that is worthy of respect.

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So are you saying then that your mandate is not to convert—by force if need be—all of humanity?

And no-one has argued that there are current plans to attack the Empire. Amarr’s divine mandate to convert all of humanity, by force if necessary, includes the State. Yes or no?

I was curious on the nature of Imperial religious doctrine regarding their Reclaiming, and I don’t think one should ever take claims at face value without at least seeking to inspect them. You mentioned the Empire is compelled by divine law to attack the State, as such if true then there would I think be promulgations and decrees from the Theology Council or the Empress Catiz I stating such since they determine what divine law is.

Only if it contradicted far older divine law. Kittenz and the Theology Council don’t have to publish ‘all the stuff is still what it was’ decrees, after all.

I will bite and answer. Yes.

Now lets pretend all the other empires would not conquer the rest if they had the means, and create a narrative that Caldari should break their alliance with the Amarr because there is a scenario where one day the Amarr Empire conquers the Caldari. As if there is not a scenario where any other faction or empire would do the same.

Your argument is getting old and you just keep it going.

Maybe they should be friends with the Gallente, they have always been good to them. Or I am sure the Minmatar would be the best of allies, and the Minmatar will help the Caldari destroy the Gallente while fending off the Amarr.

Or, they could join the Gallente and Minmatar and team up on Amarr! What a happy universe that would be afterwards, everyone would live in harmony, the Caldari would be perfectly safe! Everyone lives happily ever after huh?

Hell even Sahara and the Triglavians could be friends with this happy new harmonious cluster, being that everyone but the Amarr are so innocent and just a bunch of peace loving creatures.

Aaaand we’re back to the silly equivocation nonsense. We’ve covered this, repeatedly. The other big three are - at the moment at any rate - not under any kind of mandate or intent towards complete human domination. None of them have the mandate or intent to force their culture and faith upon the rest of the cluster. The closest you’ll get is the Federation softly pushing their chaotic primary export everywhere they can, which I’ll grant you is a more insidious threat than the Empire, but hardly similar in neither intent or danger.

There is only one nation in New Eden, not counting Sansha, that have the stated and core to their faith and identity intent and mandate to reclaim all of humanity. It is uniquely dangerous in this regard, for as long as this remains core to the Empire it is not held back in any way by “this would be too costly” or “this is counter to our laws and philosophy” and so on and so forth. The only thing that has ever held it back is military might.

Trying to pretend this is in any shape way or form something that can be applied to the other three is downright disingenuous.

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Please demonstrate any inclination the Caldari State or Tribal Republic have to actually conquering the expansionist power they rebelled against. At most, we’d like our people freed. If the Amarr would do that, and renounce their intentions to reconquer us, we’d be fine with them ■■■■■■■ off and minding their own business, and we’ll mind ours.

Yep, there we go, proof that they are much better allies and solid proof that they are best for the Caldari State right now. Its clear, if only the State would actually read your rambling on the IGS and change course to the true path of success.

Those others certainly do not have a mandate or intent to force anything on anyone else, because they haven’t said so of course. Such good peoples.

Ah, back to strawmen, I see. Silly ones at that. Is it an Amarr thing to just utterly ignore what people say and instead just tilt at imaginary windmills?

Lord above, I cannot wait until we conquer the cluster and we can finally shut you all up.

That’s all I am in it for now.

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It’s always so satisfying when the Amarr abandon the smiling false-friendliness.

Go ■■■■ yourself.

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Oh, and lookit that! You got a like from Napkins. That must make you feel special.

The alliance between State and Empire was reached with understandings made with Emperor Heideran VII. If Empress Catiz I has a desire to revert to past doctrines such as that of Emperor Damius III then I am sure the State will be notified of such and how it applies to the Caldari.

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Exactly. Now, let’s kick the snot out the ‘Republic’ and Fed, become best friends, and rule the cluster together.

See, that’s the vision the mouthy Minmatar here fear; Amarr actually being chill. So, they piss us off until we’re not chill.

Pre-emptive go ■■■■ yourself, Arrendis.

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Well, the Amarr are unlikely to renounce their intentions to reclaim the Minmatar, and I highly doubt anyone in Amarr cares what you are fine with or if you are minding your own business. I am sure you and Miz will scream strawmen on the IGS, stirring up any argument that you can get going, twisting everything, then accusing everyone else of doing the same until the end of time.

You should really be happy about it though, that someone’s mission is to bring you to the light, as much as that would cost.

And as for demonstrating an inclination for conquering, just being allied to the Gallente is enough proof of that If you Minmatar were so against it, I can not see why you would ally with the Gallente and be of help to them reconquering the Caldari. So which is it, are you and your allies for or against conquest?

All at the same time trying to convince the Caldari they should be friends with you instead.

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There was an old joke in the Peace and Order Unit:

How can you tell if someone is an Amarr spy?

Ask them.

I think Amarr have a well deserved reputation on being honest and forthright regarding their intentions towards others. I trust if the Amarr intend to reclaim the State they will make their intentions known well in advance before they do so.

Even if the Empire made it clear they intend to reclaim the State in the future I’m not exactly sure what it really changes in the here and now. At most it would make the Empire the far enemy compared to the near enemies of the Gallente Federation and Minmatar Republic that threaten the Caldari State and its people.

If and when the Federation and Republic are destroyed and their people scattered, then the State and Empire can attend to whatever violence or dialogue that must be reached. Until that day comes, nothing prevents cordial relations or even friendship between Amarr and Caldari in the shared fight against our enemies.

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