Off-Topic Thread

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #2282

Maybe go tell that to a mirror?

(Mizhara Del'thul) #2283

With friends like these.

(Arsia Elkin) #2284

Watching you two fight one another makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

(Arrendis) #2285

Well, they’ve done enough of note over enough time that the current Empress, only this year, declared them an order of Holy Paladins and granted them titles for it. I think that, in and of itself, qualifies as ‘making a blip on the Empire’s radar’. It might also have served as a reminder that as Holy Paladins of the Amarr Empire, they’ve a duty to the Empire, and might result in them taking more of an interest in the events within the Empire proper. Like Thebeka.

Because, as you may have noticed in Ms. Ramijozana’s questions, not everyone knows this. Not everyone is aware of what a significant development CVA choosing to involve themselves might be on its own. If that’s the case, they’re definitely not aware of the potential cascade effects of a CVA deployment. Idly commenting on the ramifications of a thing is not the same as ‘fearmongering’. Nobody should be afraid of CVA. They can’t break CONCORD’s regs any more than the rest of us can. But people should be aware of what CVA represents and what sort of change in terrain they could cause.

(Teinyhr) #2286

Well, like I said, I’m sure I’d be corrected. Indeed CVA has a long and storied history that can be respected in its own way, in the same way I respect U’K for being around so long, despite disagreeing with their various acts and stances in their history in general. And it is more than likely that like you said, the Empress’ acknowledgement of them might have actually reminded them to “look inward” so to speak.

If only it were idly commenting, not “well if they deployed properly, no one would survive for longer than two reinforcement cycles!” “Battleship fleets in triple digits!” “Could we invade Providence?!(???)”

Yes, the key word is could. Have they actually done anything in Thebeka beyond saying they will? I mean as in, something that is more palpable to other capsuleers: As you’ve pointed out, have they declared wars on parties involved in Thebeka? Have they deployed infrastructure in the system? No? Well, I’d think it’d be prudent to burn that bridge when we get to it, not before.
This entire discussion about CVA’s involvement has been a whole lot of ifs and maybes, but people seem to be acting like they’re an established presence already.

(Aradina Varren) #2287

Fruit mince pies are pretty good.

I ate way too many.

(Arrendis) #2288

No, people are acting like the smart move is to be aware of the potential that CVA’s involvement beings, because CVA are not stupid. The moment they become an established presence, it’s already too late for any of you to do a damned thing.

  1. You wouldn’t.
  2. They can bring those numbers to highsec, and have in the past. Identifying the potential scope of their capacities is still not fearmongering, it’s just being accurate in assessing the situation.
  3. You can’t.

(Teinyhr) #2289

Look, I just went through this exact same crap with Mizhara, look it up, or I can just post the exact same posts again.

(Arrendis) #2290

Yes, you did. And you keep insisting it’s ‘fearmongering’.

I’m not telling you that you should be afraid. Neither was Mizhara. In fact, I’ve specifically said “Nobody should be afraid of CVA.” Kind of exactly the opposite of the thing you’re accusing people of doing.

Providing an honest assessment isn’t fearmongering. It’s certainly not trying to ‘guilt’ you or anyone else, or otherwise ‘goad an emotional response’. It’s just giving an honest assessment.

If CVA really does become involved, you can do nothing about it. Don’t be afraid of that. Don’t get upset about it.

Set aside the entire issue of troops on the ground—because CVA cannot provide more than a drop in the bucket of troops the Amarr Empire can—and if need be, will—commit to maintaining control over the heart of the Empire. That situation’s a done deal. It’s just a matter of time. And in the long run, CVA putting ground forces into the mix is actually a PR loss for the Empire. There’s just no way the Amarr Empire should need assistance from capsuleer organizations to subdue rioting and rebellion on even a handful of worlds. And while Lady Newelle’s contribution is just another Sarum vassal being part of the Sarum response, and PIE and SFRIM assistance is just ‘we’re letting the capsuleers in the Empire feel like they’re helping’, CVA is a different beast.

CVA dropping significant numbers of ground forces gets spun as ‘the Empire needed to call in help from the marches’. It lends itself to fodder that the Great Houses were impotent in the face of aggression from slaves, and needed to involve capsuleers with an independent power base. Even if Ardishapur doesn’t need the help—and ultimately, they don’t—CVA landing troops opens the door to that rumor, and rumors are dangerous to an authoritarian state like the Empire. Rumors are pernicious. They’re persistent. And they’re almost impossible to really corral and wipe out.

And in this case, that rumor will embolden more slaves, on more worlds. It will undermine the fear that keeps them in ‘their place’. And the Empire knows it. So, big picture? CVA’s not dropping a large contingent of troops, and if they do, they’ll be told ‘thank you, but we don’t need them, pull back to orbit and hold in reserve’. That means CVA’s promise of ground support is utterly meaningless. It’s especially true in the terms of any other capsuleer’s actions. All you need to concern yourself with is what they can do in space, to the ships and infrastructure of other capsuleers.

And what they can do utterly obliterate anyone who currently has a structure anchored in Thebeka, if they choose to. That is what they can do. That is why they matter to capsuleers. And the reason they can do that is because they have invested years of effort into ‘nullsec antics’. So while it’s wonderful to stick your fingers in your ears and sing ‘lalalala don’t care’, it’s ultimately short-sighted. Understanding why your enemy is able to do the things they can do is a critical element of being able to overcome them.

But none of that is an attempt to goad an emotional response. None of it is fearmongering. None of it is some kind of attempt to ‘guilt’ you. That you see assessments of a more powerful foe as attempts to make you afraid speaks only about you.

People should not fear CVA getting involved. They should prepare for it. And if it doesn’t happen, then great, it’s an exercise in preparation.

(Teinyhr) #2291

Yes, that is what I said too. I’m not afraid and I’m not upset. You two seem to be to me.

Give me at least some ■■■■■■■ credit, I know what they can do and how and why. I just don’t care. The situation will not be resolved through who has the most structures around. Rescue operations, insurgency operations, etc were perpetrated long before Upwell was a twinkle in some engineers eye.

I’m not speaking about myself, I haven’t been speaking about myself not a single time I mentioned fearmongering, but those people you mentioned, those who are “outside the cycle.” You and Mizhara seem to have this weird notion that I’m afraid of something (regarding this issue; of course I am afraid about a number of things that are not relevant to the matter at hand). I don’t have infrastructure at risk in Thebeka. Even if I did, only thing I’d be afraid of would be losing loyal employees while capsuleers go around breaking each others toys. I find both of your fascination with capsuleer power infantile, if that is not clear already.

Edit: And I’m also quite sure you consider my lack of regard to capsuleer power equally infantile, but them’s the breaks.

(Arrendis) #2292

I want them to come. What part of that is ‘afraid’ or ‘upset’? I want them to come because the more other blocs throw in behind the Amarr, the greater my chances of convincing CD that we should throw in behind the Matari. CVA may not be as good as PL announcing they’re coming to support PIE, but it ain’t nuthin’, either.

(Teinyhr) #2293

The same nonexistant part that you and Mizhara keep attributing to me.

(Arrendis) #2294

What I attribute to you are accusations of ‘fearmongering’ and trying to ‘guilt’ you and ‘goad an emotional response’.

If you’re saying you’ve never made those accusations, maybe you should go and re-read your posts.

(Teinyhr) #2295

What the ■■■■ are you even on about? Those things are not even related. Did you perhaps miss the part that I was not talking about myself, but that you both seem to think I am.

(Arrendis) #2296

So, for example, your direct accusation that I was fearmongering in my initial assessment of CVA is ‘not even related’ to the discussion about CVA and how you’re lobbing accusations around that aren’t remotely close to having any grounding in reality?

Next will you claim that none of this has anything to do with Thebeka?

(Teinyhr) #2297

No, I didn’t mean any of those things? I’m honestly not following your logic here at all.
… Sigh, I mean, yes I mean you are fear mongering and etc etc, but I don’t get where you are pulling this other stuff from?

(Arrendis) #2298

And now you’re back to telling me I’m fearmongering when I say ‘NOBODY SHOULD BE AFRAID OF CVA’.

Have you had a stroke or something?

(Alizabeth Vea) #2299

You know what we need? An off-topic off-topic thread. That’s what we need. Something to discuss CVA’s deployment, potential deployment, and the like. To keep the off-topic thread from getting cluttered with an on-topic discussion.

Off-Topic Thebeka/Alkabsi/Empire Rebellion Thread
(Arrendis) #2300

A brief expansion to point this out:

The quoted chain indicates, by your statement, that you are pulling this accusation from a ‘nonexistant part’ of the discussion. You know what nonexistent means, right? It means you’re basing that statement on something that isn’t there. You’re saying, in effect ‘I’m getting it from lying’.

That’s all following you claiming that you ‘didn’t mean any of those things’ when you accused me and Miz of fearmongering and attempting to ‘goad an emotional response’. Again, the ’ ’ section there is your words.

That’s you. In this thread. Talking about statements made in assessment of CVA’s potential involvement. Now you’re claiming that you have no idea where I’m getting that. Well, I’m getting it from you, in this thread. You’re claiming it’s not relevant to the discussion… the ‘discussion’, at this point, being me talking about your accusations against people who were assessing CVA’s potential involvement.

Please, please tell me you do not need to have it explained to you how your accusations are relevant to my discussion of your accusations.

PLEASE tell me you can understand how the very thing I am talking about is relevant to me talking about it.

(Teinyhr) #2301

I could ask the same of you. Nobody should be afraid of CVA, except they should, because they’d walk over all of us here, could turn the tide of this, but they can’t, because they can’t, but they might, but probably won’t, but still, be prepared. I THINK you are fearmongering, because nothing has happened, and continues to not happen. I keep trying to tell you that your “capability assessment” is causing undue stress on other people, especially baseliners. To me, this is plain as day. Then you (and Mizhara in particular) keep fighting somekind of strawman of me constantly. This is confusing as hell.

“Why try to guilt me, or anyone else for that matter.” Mizhara kept bringing up the rebels fighting and dying, which is pretty basic way of trying to goad an emotional response, and in my opinion was not relevant to the issue being talked about.

Because I’m sincerely not following your logic. What are you arguing for? Do you want me to admit that I’m wrong about something? If so, what? All I can see is you selectively quoting what I’ve said and running with the worst possible conclusions of what I’ve said. Once again it looks like we’re both arguing about completely different things.