Off-Topic Thread


(Arrendis) #2302

Clearly, I am noot explaining the situation properly. I thought I was, but if you’re not understanding it, that’s on me. I apologize. I will try again.

In space, CVA has the capability to utterly annihilate all of the groups that currently have structures in Thebeka. On both sides. Simultaneously, if they wanted. They aren’t likely to commit in the necessary amount of force, because nullsec pilots in highsec have a tendency to shoot the wrong targets and get themselves CONCORDed. That doesn’t mean they won’t, only that the odds are very much stacked against doing so.

Nobody should be afraid of this scenario. They should be prepared for it, because if it happens, such preparations will be necessary, but they should not fear it. Fear is an irrational, primal reaction. It spurs impulsive, dare I say even knee-jerk reactions in an attempt to escape danger. Fear is pointless in this situation. If they come in force, you will not escape them through the reactions of fear. No-one should fear CVA.

But they should be prepared. Have the means available to move assets from the orbital infrastructure under wardec into infrastructure that is not. Use independent freight services. Leave nothing valuable where it can be easily isolated and destroyed. Be prepared. Preparation reduces the likelihood of fear, because you have the reassurance of knowing that you have taken what actions you can.

Nor do baseliners have anything to fear from CVA. CVA’s forces, compared to those of the Empire itself, are a whisper’s condensation in the pouring rain. If baseliners are not worried about the Empire’s forces, there is no reason to fear. If they are already afraid of the Empire’s forces, then they are already afraid, and CVA will not make things worse.

The only person I see saying that a calm, rational evaluation of CVA’s capabilities makes people ‘afraid’… is you.


(Loai Qerl) #2303

Oh you three. <3


(Teinyhr) #2304

Wall of text alert: Nobody except Arrendis needs to bother reading all of this, unless you want to.


The very first response I got on my quip was Miz starting with, “CVA I actually hesitate to mock. I have quite genuinely never seen such tenacity out there in null before.” with you following suit with " This is very true, and nothing I say should be taken as mocking CVA or Provibloc as a whole."

I interpreted that as fear, and no, I don’t mean naked fear, but if you’re hesitant about poking a sleeping giant, most would consider said hesitance to imply a fear of reprisal. If that was a wrong interpretation, then I apologize. Maybe I should have said “worry” then, because from my point of view, both of you were clearly worried about CVA’s potential involvement, because none of us even with our powers combined could stop them.

As to why I considered and termed both your continued assesments of CVA’s prowess fearmongering is, to me at least, simple and based on a very basic human instinct - if something is fully capable and also is willing to kick your ass, that induces a fear reaction in most people. Your assesments especially reinforce the capable part, but also lend power to the willing part, as in, “they’ve done similar shows of force before.”

Speaking of point-of-views, large part of the argument between me and Mizhara stems from what I can only guess is complete values dissonance and generally opposing worldviews. I’ve noticed that my attitude towards capsuleer life is on a crash course with many other people as well, maybe I should try and explain a bit what I mean, as it apparently it is not as clear cut to others as I thought it would be. I’ll start with this:

Here’s the thing. To me, there is no pretending involved. Even if they brought their entire alliance to permacamp Thebeka, they are not a force to be reckoned with to anyone but other capsuleers. And even then, to just certain groups of capsuleers. Capsuleers in general have this inflated sense of self-importance, that the universe revolves around us. Us, some hundreds of thousands of us (or if I’m being generous, maybe a million or two?), if each and every retired and permadead capsuleer suddenly returned to life and active duty. Against empires with trillions in the employment of their militaries. It is a grand lie that many have swallowed, that we’re kind of a big deal.

Well, that is not entirely wrong - empires, pirate entities, even probably sleepers, drifters and recently, you could say that it is all but confirmed that Triglavians too, use us as product testers.
That is our grand role in this universe.

Why do I say this? Because the empires are known to analyze capsuleer wars and skirmishes, to train their own capsuleers to be more efficient and to compare and improve their own combat doctrines, and to use all that data to predict outcomes of battles and wars not yet fought. To develop new ships and learn from our triumphs or failures with them.

It is no coincidence that various combat boosters, experimental modules etc. just happen to be left behind by various pirate incursions. They learn how we utilize their hulls and specialized technology just the same. That in itself is invaluable.

That the Sleepers, Drifters and Triglavians leave us largely to our own devices despite our “interference” with them is that we’re clearly offering to them also something of value, so much so that Triglavians practically invited us over once they were discovered. We are certainly valuable to many entities, but not in the way many of us probably think. We’re a goldmine of data.

And clearly, most entities consider us but a surface nuisance, and that whatever losses they take are an acceptable trade for the data they can collect from our ingenious or utterly stupid ways of utilizing their technologies, something that is incredibly hard to program in to predictive models.

So. The only people we matter to, in the big picture, is each other.
But even so, why do you think I refuse to acknowledge various null entities, why do I say that they’re not important? Because for us capsuleers, military power is an illusion of our power. Our real power is money - even though that too, is mostly isolated from the actual powerplayers in this universe. And yet - any notable null alliance has leaps and bounds more of the real power - money, than I ever will. That is true. But they spend nearly all of it to the illusionary part of our existence. Because they believe that having the most stations, capital ships or advanced battleships or cruisers or destroyers are worth a damn. Personally? I reckon those capsuleers that have focused on being industry magnates have the right idea, if they seek to make themselves actually relevant in the universe.

I believe I’ve said this many times - the truly vexing part of our existence is that no matter how much money, no matter how many times you destroy someone’s capsule - we always come back. Between us, martial struggle is an exercise in futility and it benefits everyone but us. Well, okay, that is perhaps a bit hyperbolic - we do benefit from experience, of course. It’s just that so many other parties reap the same rewards, our reward is meager in comparison.

Ok, ok, you might be wondering how does this relate to CVA and Thebeka. I’ll try to bullet point this all:

  • CVA is a large capsuleer force potentially trying to exercise its power against a slave revolt on a planet.
  • There are various other players on the field trying to help the rebels on said planet.
  • CVA could theoretically remove all the other actors from the field just because they are bigger and meaner.
  • Even if they did so, I still could single handedly fund various entities - baseliners or just neutral capsuleers - to attempt to deliver mountainloads of weapons, medicine, food and other supplies - that I can purchase in literal mountainous piles - to the rebels.
  • End result is, CVA doesn’t matter, even if they are the biggest, meanest kid on the block that drove everyone off from the sandpit. All they could do is end my or anyone elses direct involvement by doing so.

Lastly some observations about myself (both to your and my benefit) on what leads me to most verbal conflict with other capsuleers:
-I generally don’t consider capsuleers important in a grand scheme of things. This is a source of many interpersonal conflicts, as many capsuleers do seem to take this as a personal insult, and often also think I’m trying to elevate myself above them, morally or otherwise. I acknowledge that I should endeavour to express myself more clearly with less of a dismissive tone, perhaps.
-In relation to the above, though, a capsuleer can be a precision tool, worth their weight in gold - a single right person at the right place, at the right time, could change even the world irrevocably, for better or for worse. A capsuleer could be that person just as anyone else. It’s just not very likely, as most capsuleers don’t deal with issues with the gravity of potentially touching trillions of lives. And I don’t feel that thinking like this is contradictory - a person can hold various viewpoints on a same issue, even opposing ones.
-This is definetly not as rare of a viewpoint, but I consider capsuleers as a ginormous amorphous entity to also do considerably more harm than good. This is most painfully evident in that the average capsuleers average reaction to anything new and unexpected is open hostility. Even those few people I do consider more enlightened than your average capsuleer were quick to draw their weapons against Circadian Seekers and later the Drifters, outright refusing to listen to any kind of appeal to reason. Triglavians I intentionally excluded from that, since there is some indication that they do want to be shot at, for whatever reason.


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #2305

Please just make it stop…


(Teinyhr) #2306

There are no brakes on “arguing-about-stuff” train.


(Mizhara Del'thul) #2307

Don’t make her stop now that she’s finally arguing reasonably. I mean, she’s still wrong as far as I’m concerned in many ways, but at least now it’s good reasoning and arguments that hold water on their own.

As for your post Teinyhr, I largely agree in fact. The only thing is, you downplay our capacity too much. Not in that you misrepresent the balance between capsuleers and our Nations, but you downplay the importance of the little things we can do. In Project Mekhios, there’s over a million freed men, women and children from several sources, all being treated, trained, educated if necessary (languages and cultural customs mostly, most have trades) and provided a path to the future of their choosing.

These didn’t just appear out of nowhere. I dare you to go up to any one of them, any one of them and say “you’re unimportant. You don’t matter.” In a clusterwide sense, of course they don’t. To each other? To them? They’re all someone got, be it themselves or someone beloved. That is why what we do in Thebeka matters. Why it’s so vitally important to avoid being swarmed out of there by a force vastly greater than ours. It’s because of that one we get out. The two that managed to sneak onto a customs office delivery. The dozen that fought themselves to a shuttle pad and miraculously got into orbit.

The thousand little streams that becomes a torrent.

You can pay however many of whoever many whatever you want. It doesn’t matter if you don’t have system access. Places to organize. Places to stage responses to things happening dirtside or its orbit. Do you think people are fighting in dying in orbit here for fun? People are dying for these people, be it to stomp a boot on their necks or to grasp their reaching hands.

“Grand scheme of things”? It’s made up of countless trillion little things, and each and every last one of those little things thus matter.


(Teinyhr) #2308

Um, I don’t think I did? I did specifically say that capsuleers can work as precision tools and a single, determined capsuleer at the right time, at the right place, can be of great value (or detriment) to societies at large. Indeed, the little things we can do are in my mind considerably more important than making flashy entrances, shows of apparent force and hosting carousels on orbits.

Why would, or should I do that? I’m not sure I understood that correctly. I’m not sure you’ve understood that to me, yes, people like them, are more important than any of our rotten lives.

…And who is going to deny this system access? They can’t intecept every single ship that comes through the stargates. Not every ship that comes through is even visible to us, or how often do you see Interbus transports on your overview? There might be, and probably are, smuggler’s stargates around the system we don’t know about. Shutting down an entire star system is an incredibly tall order without destroying or disabling stargates, all of them, which I am fairly sure, no capsuleer power can do.

Then, further on, I think people are a bit too much in love with the new structures. Place to organize? Staging ground? Just plant a cloaked blockade runner in the system to work as a makeshift command post and staging ground. Rescue and insurgency ops, as I’m sure you of all people should be aware of, have been done before, and nobody needed to plant a POS in the system to do so.

True.


(Valerie Valate) #2309

I’ve been married 6 times. Well, more than 6, but only 6 times to men.

5 of my husbands died. The sixth husband, that marriage was annulled, on account of him actually being a Ministry of Internal Order agent, who used me as part of his cover. I was not pleased by that at all.

Especially as if he had just disappeared, then I could have had a declare-someone-dead service and funeral at the cathedral, which would have earned me enough loyalty points to get a speedboat.

My first husband was a tall, muscly chap. Unfortunately, he died. Asphyxiated. Quite unfortunate really. Especially as his mother kept insisting that I had murdered her favourite son. Wasn’t my fault. We were snuggling, and I fell asleep, and the next thing I know, he’d suffocated. I was 21 at the time.

My second husband, was shorter, but just as muscly, which gave him a sort of wide appearance. Unfortunately, he died as well. Heart attack. Which was quite distressing for me at the time. We were both 23 at the time.

It was a heart attack that killed my third husband as well. Chap was another tall man, a sportball player. But unfortunately, he died. In somewhat similar circumstances to my second husband. I was 25 by this point.

My fourth husband, now that was really embarrassing, as he died from a severe allergic reaction, while we were still at the church, signing the official register and all that. Poor man turned out to be highly allergic to something in the lipstick I was using. So when the priest said “You may kiss the bride”, that was basically a death sentence. And it was not long past my 27th birthday that this occurred.

Now, my fifth husband, another sportball player, that was another embarrassing incident, as he also succumbed to a heart attack, while we were on our honeymoon. Which was shortly before my 29th birthday.

By this point, I was somewhat saddened by this chain of events, and possibly was quite emotionally vulnerable. Which my sixth husband took advantage of, in my opinion. I’ve already said he was a MIO agent, of course I had no idea of this at the time. So, he charmed me, and we ended up married, and then one day, I come home from a meeting of the Ladies Committee at the church, and he jumps out of the wardrobe, ties me up, which I wasn’t expecting. And then says “Sorry Val dear, I have to leave you. Maybe we’ll meet again some day.” and then he departs, never to be seen again. Later that day, the police arrive, trample on my damn flower garden, break down the door of my house, drink the wine I had chilling in the fridge, and untie me, and it was then that I learned my husband was actually a MIO agent using a false name. So I had that marriage annulled.

At this point, the Bishop at the church said “Valerie, perhaps God has decided you are not the marrying kind. There are other walks of life open to you. If we can assist you, we shall.”

So, I took the accumulated wealth I had, and became a capsuleer, and later a renowned academic.

Isn’t life funny at times ?


(Arrendis) #2310

tl;dr


(Arrendis) #2311

Ok. Now that I’ve had my fun, an actual response.

Well, no.

First off, nothing I’m saying about CVA or Providence in that thread is mocking because… I’m not talking about the things I’d mock them for. If I were to mock CVA, I’d mock them over just how bad a job they do of keeping their space safe. Industrialists may be welcome, but if they want the reasonable level of security that’s pretty strongly implied when you say ‘I control this space’, then Provi isn’t the place to go. Heck, I’d go to Geminate first, and we’ve had the NGSA cloaky-camping and hotdropping that region for months.

That is what I’d mock them for. And it’s not pertinent to their capabilities in a short-term campaign outside of their space. So nothing I say about them with regard to their capabilities in a short-term campaign outside of their space would be mockery. And that’s not a fear of reprisal, either, but we’ll put in a pin in that.

Nor am I ‘worried’ about their potential involvement. As I said: I’m eager for it. For the same reason I don’t fear their ‘reprisals’.

What exactly is CVA going to do to me?

Let me be blunt. What I said before was:

and

and also

Now, I know I’m a pedant. I point out tiny little details that really aren’t significant to the larger point being made and then demonstrate how they really do change what was said… but on this one, I think my point is really actually significant to whether or not my statements indicate I’m worried about their involvement or any reprisals they might attempt.

Every one of those quotes uses the second-person plural pronoun “you”. None of them use the first-person plural pronoun “we”. Do you know why?

Because you cannot do a damned thing about CVA. All of you. On both sides. Put together. If CVA really commits, then CVA is immediately a much bigger fish, and you are all very little fish. That’s not being said to insult anyone, or make anyone afraid. It’s just a statement of fact. 180 between PIE and KH, including all inactives. 178 in Electus Matari. 208 in Phoenix Naval Systems. 1500 in CVA. If both sides involved in wardecs plus Phoenix were to all commit everything, CVA would still outnumber you by roughly 3:1.

That’s you. Second-person plural. As in ‘not me’.

Without the rest of the Imperium, with 35,000 capsuleers, Goonswarm alone outnumbers CVA by better than 20:1[1].

No. I’m not ‘worried’ about CVA. I do not fear their involvement. I do not fear their reprisals. If they commit in force, they are only giving me the opportunity to nudge a few friends to take a couple hundred people to go jam sharp implements into their kidneys and giggle while they do it. Because right now, Goons are bored. The only thing keeping us from being all over this thing in much greater numbers than the tiny little groups our logi SIG has already sent has been ‘highsec war nonsense’ and ‘inconvenient timers’.

Put a nullsec group in there, and we have a target we can light on fire while their back is turned. And if you don’t think we’ll do that just for laughs, you’ve been living under a rock during the yearly Burn events.

If a capsuleer engaged in (or leading) an active war receives an assessment of a potential opponent that indicates they are vastly outmatched, and their response to this is to react in fearthey are in the wrong line of work and should get out of it immediately. Again: Consider your options. Prepare contingency plans, even if those plans are ‘well, we’re boned, let’s pull back’. Be ready to be pushed back, because a sudden surprising onslaught is far more demoralizing to the line members than one you can make plans for.

They’ve done shows of force. They haven’t pulled the trigger. Parade formations and executing people the Empire has designated as valid targets through CONCORD’s suspect flag are worlds away from actually declaring war and hoping nobody screws up and gets the whole logi wing CONCORDed.

That’s not fearmongering. Fearmongering is intentionally attempting to sow fear. Fearmongering depends on the intent of actor, not the reaction of the audience. And so far as I can tell, nobody is attempting to make other people afraid here—only to arm them with a clear-eyed assessment of the potential effects, so they can make their preparations from an informed position, rather than reacting out of fear or panic.


  1. You’ll notice, I haven’t been bringing that point up before. I haven’t wanted to have to, because someone will inevitably read that as boasting, or trying to swing my metaphorical dick around, or generally just trying to swagger it up and say how much better I am than everyone else because I’m surrounded by more idiots who make me want to fellate a 75mm autocannon than you are. It’s still none of those things. It’s just a flat statement of facts to illustrate why your interpretation of my words as being ‘worried’ about CVA taking a cheese-grater to their own balls in a futile attempt to do anything to me and mine is wrong.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #2312

This.

You don’t fear an overwhelming capsuleer force. You might dislike your position, but if you need to be afraid, you have over-committed and should pull back now.


(Teinyhr) #2313

Yes, you’ve made that clear already. I’ve mostly been clearing up my reasoning for earlier assesments, not calling you a coward.

Ok, for the record, this next bit is a general statement, just so you don’t confuse it with the discussion about Thebeka or CVA:
No, fear is itself good. Being afraid of things is a healthy response, even for a capsuleer. Becoming overwhelmed by fear is what’s bad. I’m 100% sure you comprehend this just as well as I.

Ok, I’ll concede that point to you.


(Arrendis) #2314

Feeling fear is fine. You’ll notice, once again, what I actually said:

Emphasis added. If you feel fear, that’s legitimate. Feel it. Don’t try to deny that you feel it.

But fear should never be the thing that drives your reactions. Acknowledge it, so you can own it and isolate it, then react rationally. Reacting in fear will never be rational. It will be emotional, and it will be precipitous. Don’t fall into that trap.


(Arrendis) #2315

Also, for the record? If at some point you think I’m being a coward, feel free to call me one. I can be. There’s a lot of things out there that terrify me to the point of being stupid and irrational and just… getting away. I’m not going to tell you what they are, mind you… :slight_smile:

… but they’re out there, and I won’t deny it. Exploding in space just isn’t one of them. After all, my average life expectency is still right around 30 days[1], even if I’m about to try stretching that again (32d and counting, right now).


  1. In fact, after doing some quick math, it’s right around 30d, 9h, 25m, 42s, so I’m at time of writing 1d 15h exactly (little freaky there) over my average.

(Mizhara Del'thul) #2316

… so the thing she’s afraid is the looming death by statistics.


(Arrendis) #2317

Pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt!


(Aria Jenneth) #2318

Back to Provi…

Never would of thought that I would feel more safe in null than I do in highsec.

Quote is from Thebeka local, from a CVA member who shall remain nameless.

If this is at all representative, seems all concerned should maybe focus on worrying about each other for now.


(Mizhara Del'thul) #2319

This is common enough both for null and lowsec dwellers. Highsec is creepy as hell if you’re not used to it. What to a highsec dweller is just a perfectly normal gate with other travelers around becomes a swarm of potential hostiles and/or a smorgasbord of targets that sends an adrenaline rush through the veins of a nullsec pilot. A perfectly “normal” highsec local is much the same. A swarm of unknowns, doing whatever they hell they want like some sort of crazy people. Every last one possibly hostile eyes, tornado/thrasher pilots with sec status to burn, and so on.

When you’re trained by circumstance to be paranoid and on guard under such circumstance, such comments are common.

They rarely keep them from operating there though.


(Arrendis) #2320

Imagine, Aria, if every one of the people on every gate you go through was a potential ganker. Imagine if at any time, you could jump through a gate and find yourself pointed and blown up despite no war targets being in local.

Because that’s all true. Every moment of every day. In highsec. Most highsec pilots just aren’t conditioned to be acutely aware of that fact. They’re not used to standings as a way to say ‘hey, we can trust the people around us’ and everyone else being assumed hostile. There are no networks of information to say ‘Campers are active on X gate in Y system’, or give locations, names, numbers, and ship types of hostiles. And for the most part, the people living in highsec don’t miss what they’ve never known.

But there is a reason Delve is arguably the safest space a capsuleer can live in. Most of nullsec has the same systems built up for the same reasons. That kind of security is what claiming space is understood to mean, out here… and it’s why that is the thing I’d mock CVA over. Their NRDS stance really is asking for the industrialists who live there to get shot in the back.


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #2321

There’s people in hisec. All the time. And you can never know who they all are and what they are up to. It’s terrible really.

And yea, I’ve been down the sec status hill enough myself in my life that I still feel like that.