As the others have said, it’s not fixed. It’s part of the ‘thousands of tiny little cultures’ thing, in a way, Aria: we are variable, from Clan to Clan, within certain tolerances. And so are those tolerances. And so, our terminology is variable… sometimes… for some of those groups. Maybe.
In some ways, I guess this is what happens when you have an entire interplanetary society suddenly bereft of large chunks of their own traditions and common culture, and everyone forced to redefine what it means to be ‘us’, when the only real absolute is ‘us… is us’. Unity in the face of what else is out there, because what else is out there tried—and is still trying—to destroy us. But, at the same time, that thing that tried to destroy us tried to do it through conformity and dictating who we could be… so there’s a predisposition (especially in that first wave) to reject anyone else’s idea of who we should be[1], and do our own defining of ‘who am I?’
… all of it tied together by 'We are the people “not us” tried to destroy through conformity."
I mean, that’s a way to look at it, I guess. I dunno. Just kinda riffing, there. Still, I think you could find more cultural permutations to explore in a single region of Pator or Huggar than you might find in an entire Region of the Empire. They emphasize homogeneity and conformity, after all.
And in a way, you can think of us as an entire culture of countercultures, rejecting ‘what else is out there’, but often—within some permutations of ‘us’—enforcing a kind of rigid conformity to the counterculture. Getting a ‘bad’ voluval’s a possible reflection of that.
Actually, I do agree with this, and I feel that you yourself somewhat illustrate this in your own post.
The factors that you sum up in that quote, love, warmth, companionship…These are things that everybody wants. Almost every single Human yearns for these things and a place of belonging more then anything else. That is what makes us happy.
There is a reason charisma is often considered the most powerfull and dangerous trait one can posess. It is a power that can be used for good or evil but it serves to influence others by playing on both their logic and their emotions. A charismatic person will draw in followers by making them feel exactly what you described. To make them feel loved, cared for, and make them feel that they belong. That is how one builds an excellent powerbase.
If you yearn only for this, then you will play along happily.
You will play along, even if the cause you serve is widely regarded as evil , or reprehensible. This is how cults also draw in their members.
And the only thing that can reliably deflect this influence and make a person say no to, basically, everything they want on an instinctive level…Is purpose. If you “stand for something” greater then yourself, then other values come into play. Solidarity, service to a higher cause, honour, a vision or virtue that we consider more important then our own happiness.
If someone has these things, then they can look such an offer in the eye and say “no”. If they do not, then they will “fall for anything” and go along with the first person to offer them these things.
If nothing else, worship of God serves this purpose for the Amarr, and does so quite well.
I mean no offense, but you do seem to prove the saying true. Now, I would add the caveat that one who does stand for something can be easily manipulated by leaders from that particular cause. Someone who embodies what you stand for will have power over you, but at least you choose the purpose.
Humans are pack animals, in the end. True independence is hard to obtain.
Discussing with you is difficult because you only seem to “stand for” people you care about on a personal level, which is fine, but also renders discussions on higher causes moot.
Your friends are who they are, and no matter what arguments are brought into the mix, you will stand with them, not just in deeds but in words, regardless. As such, every discussion inevitably ends the same way.
I feel that may be a bit much. You can open your mind to other viewpoints without acting on them, in my opinion. I never wanted you to turn on SFRIM (not that I wouldn’t be happy if you did), but I did hope for an open mind. When every argument is shot down with “Yes but my friends are here, and I believe in them, period.” it kind of takes away the point of the discussion.
It is difficult to elaborate on who I am and what I believe in when everything I say runs into an armor tank.
This is, of course, coming from a Minmatar. I have heard that the Amarr community frowns on dissenting viewpoints, so mayhaps this is not as easy for you as it is for me.
As for the Minmatar: Essentially, our social lives take place in multiple layers. One is part of a tribe, which is self-explanatory and massive. Within that tribe are clans. Clans function as a sort of family unit, though usually a bit larger (family as you know it is not as highly valued within most of Minmatar society, so the clan fills roughly a similar function). If a clan represents the family, a circle represents a place of employment, and one is not born into them. Think of a circle as either a place of employment, or a guild or union, depending on the exact clan.
Most of our lives take place within these groups, and they can overlap and interact in many ways.
That is, of course, speaking solely for “proper” Minmatar who where born within their tribes and grew up fairly normally. The Minmatar are probably the most widespread race in the galaxy, and those who come from different backgrounds may have very different lives from that. Some, like myself, are escaped slaves, and the search for who we are after we return can be a defining point of one’s life. One can still have a tribe, and clan, but one who did not grow up in them will have a different experience, and a different set of morals.
A vast number also grow up in the Gallente Federation, where these customs are adhered to to varying degrees of intensity, but often not entirely. Such Minmatar can be close to us or be nigh indistinguishable from any other Federation citizen…Who tend to be a very diverse people in any event, so realize that I am using a term of convenience here. Considering how diverse that nation is, I would not say there really is such a thing as a “Federation citizen” stereotype.
And people from these various backgrounds, or from differing clans or tribes, can disagree quite a bit, as each has their own perspectives on life and what is important. In the distant past these disagreements where often settled by warfare, and the fact that the tribes where able to set aside their differences and unite is still one of the most celebrated achievements of the Minmatar people.
I slept later than I expected to today, so please accept this wall of text and quotes with my sincerest apologies.
That’s fine. The offer stands, ceteris paribus. I’ll circle back to this in a moment, though.
There have been several. I do a lot of lurking; I don’t necessarily offer replies unless I think I’m saying something that no one else has said. And also sometimes I just cbf to write.
One recent fount of examples is in the ARC litigation thread, where you and Ms. Priano did a lot of circling the topic and even made a few accusations that had nothing to do with the Matari in question’s actual concern.
Indeed, one of the first comments I made here was to call you out on your claims that the Amarr have changed, that they are not so bad, that we Matari overreact to them. That entire thread (The Completion of the Reclaiming) was an exercise in denial.
You were also largely absent from the discussions around Ms. Kernher, whose current situation tends to refute the things you’ve said you believe about the Amarr.
Now, I haven’t linked to the threads or the quotes themselves because 1) I’m not trying to reopen all those old arguments and 2) my goal here is not to make you feel attacked. You did ask for spots, so here they are. If you’d like me to go in more detail, I’d rather do so in a private conversation, where (I think) there would be less pressure on both of us.
But essentially, my worry has always been that you actually exist in sort of a self-defeating circle. The spots I just referenced are just ones that I’ve been here for, but they already show a pattern of closing your mind to what doesn’t fit into your worldview. I’m usually of the opinion that you’re so far gone that you’re beyond saving, but for not unrelated reasons I’m feeling a bit more charitable right now.
For example: This whole visit idea was a spontaneous one, and I certainly didn’t expect you to drop everything and go right away. But I’m very concerned that your holdup excuse is “Duties,” as that is very indefinite. You will always have duties. My extremely-not-professional opinion is that you’re hiding behind this so that you don’t have to step outside of your comfort zone, outside of what you currently believe to be true.
But no one can force you to do that; you have to commit on your own terms. So I can offer, and we’ll see whether you’re ever able to overcome those trepidations and break out of that comfort zone.
Not literally. We just all have different experiences. I don’t think I would speak even for a Matar-born Brutor, who would have grown up in warmer climes than I did. There are cultural differences, particularly for those who didn’t grow up on Old Mother. Like I mentioned, we’re not a monolith.
I just want to point out that I don’t know Ms. Vuld. I don’t think we’ve ever even met. So for us both to have arrived at the same conclusion about you (Ms. Jenneth) independently, I think that should mean something.
Again, not trying to attack you. Just putting it out there.
I won’t try to defend directly against Isha’s view, and yours, that my mind is closed, Ms. Ramijozana. After all, defensiveness isn’t going to change that impression much, and probably there are a fair number of your compatriots that share it. But I do really love the fact that one thing you’ve cited as evidence of my closed mind is that I think the Amarr “are not so bad, that [you] Matari overreact to them.”
The Amarr are so obviously evil that if I don’t agree my mind is obviously closed, poisoned against both you and reality. Plainly I’m in denial.
Well … I won’t try to prove otherwise by arguments and clever logic. I might have a little trouble proving such a thing to your satisfaction by any means whatever, just in general, but it’ll be fun to see whether your opinion remains unchanged over time.
My duties are actually pretty specific, but potentially very broad: I’m Directrix Daphiti’s assistant and sworn retainer. I’ll be able to go when given leave to do so-- and I do expect to receive it, although it might take a little time. Finally getting to do a “Sojourn: The Republic” series is something I’d more than half given up on ever actually getting to do.
She’ll probably be looking forward to reading it.
A thing that does give me pause is, well … to be direct, you don’t seem to think a lot of me. You appear to think I’m a fool (and I am, but, maybe not the way you think). Maybe that’s fixable, but, we’ll see.
This is actually due to the fact that a posting restriction was ordered for SFRIM, due to the highly politically sensitive nature of the discussion, a decision was made to restrict SFRIM pilots from commenting on the threads involving it.
This is a habit with you: Someone says something you don’t like, so you twist it in your mind into the absolute worst thing it could be.
There’s just really no way that you could reasonably jump from what I said, which was that you think we overreact to Amarr, to “AMARR ARE SO OBVIOUSLY EVIL.”
I have never said that all Amarr are evil. That would be irresponsible. I’ve not met every Amarr. I’ve not even met a handful of them. Also, I’m fully aware that things operate on a scale. There’s no good. There’s no evil.
What I am trying to do, instead, is understand, at least a little, the Amarr point of view. I’ll never agree with it, but maybe reaching an understanding of each other is a start to resolving the differences between us. (Well, maybe not on an empire scale, it’s all too complicated up there, but on an individual basis, certainly.)
So I made my offer, and it was genuine. I invited you to my homeworld–to my home. Among my family and clan. I promised safe conduct. I even admitted that I am trying to offer you friendship, a comment that I was sure my peers would ridicule. I went out on a limb for you.
And you attacked me.
You accused me of implying that “Amarr are so obviously evil,” which is patently a comment that I have never made.
This is, by far, not the first time I’ve seen you attack someone when you felt your defenses crumbling. You also did it in the ARC thread. But that’s one thing. To attack someone who literally did nothing to you, who went out of her way to make sure you didn’t feel attacked, who offered to host you in the most personal of places? That’s just appalling.
And it’s attacks like these that keep people from wanting to debate with you.
I offered you my hand, and you slapped it away.
Are you seeing it yet?
I’ll say the same of your opinions.
I don’t think much of your politics, no. And I don’t think much of your style of debate (see above).
Of you, personally? I have no idea. I’ve never met you. And, contrary to what you might think, I don’t make complete character judgments of people based on what they say here.
But I can tell you one thing for sure:
I would never, ever, ever invite someone I disliked or distrusted to my hometown.
But haven’t you come to your own conclusions about me? On what basis? Even if you’ve read everything I’ve written here and looked into my background, you still don’t know anything about me. You don’t know what kind of work I do, or what my personal interest in Amarr and Caldari might be. You’ve never asked. You’ve just assumed, I guess.
I am a woman of my word, so the offer is open to you whenever, or if-ever, you should like to take it. Maybe together we can learn some things.
If you say so.
Anyway. I’m gonna go let the whiskey sing me to sleep.
He’s probably right. Imagine ultimate personal freedom. Then imagine the antithesis. Shift that just a notch or two down continuum to freedom and that’s SFRIM.
There’s a whole list of topics on things corp members cannot comment about, gainsay, etc. They also have a mandatory clothing policy. Most of them are pretty decent folks, just in the service of a religion that commands them to do some pretty cruel and awful things, like most Amarr.
Edit: I mean, Mistress is Amarr. I still love her.
There’s an element of sparring in most conversations relating to these two empires, Melisma. Of course that was an attack. So’s the idea that I’m closed-minded, which is something you raised while citing Isha for support. And …
That, doesn’t actually make it not an attack, any more than saying “no offense” makes a comment less offensive. Actually in both cases it’s more like conceding that an ordinary reader would conclude that an offensive or attacking comment had indeed been made.
This discussion stands on kind of a pile of suspicions. I suspect that you think I’m basically brainwashed-- Isha’s even said as much directly, that I’m “corrupted.” I suspect you intend to do what you can to remedy this.
You’re mistaken, but I can’t expect you to see that.
And I suspect you’ll act on your suspicions using means I have no problem with you trying. Because guest-right, among other things. You might not see yourselves precisely as the heroes of this story, but I do believe I can rely on your hospitality and safe-passage. And I look forward to learning more.
The Amarr never hid their intentions from me, never lied or cheated me. I worked with the Society and even entered the Directrix’s service knowing perfectly well that I’m a target for Reclaiming. And your intentions …
… don’t seem so different to these eyes. You want me for your side, also, do you not? Or at least, away from theirs?
You’ll likely get your chance.
I’m a follower of the Shuijing sect of Achur practice; clarity is my goal. You can tell me my eyes are clouded, and I’ll pay attention (there’s exactly one Matari right now I actually won’t listen to)-- but understand that I have a little bit of reason to wonder about yours, also.
If that seems ungrateful to you, then understand that the Amarr knew I was walking into their Empire with a head full of misconceptions and fear. And they took me on anyway.
Actually, that’s an interesting question of etiquette. Is it customary for guests never to challenge their host-- even before the visit actually happens? I can probably work around that, but, it might mean I’d be approaching other people for almost everything, data-wise.
Challenge? Maybe. Insult? It’s not common, I’ll say that. And… Aria, c’mon. Really?
Saying ‘no offense’ isn’t intended to make a comment inoffensive. You know better than that. It’s literally a worn-down ‘no offense intended’, meaning the statement isn’t being made with the goal of giving offense, but recognizing that the statement is likely to be received as potentially offensive.
Similarly, the statement that she’s not trying to attack you is conveying her intentions, while simultaneously acknowledging that the statement might make you feel attacked. Indeed, if it wasn’t a risk, she wouldn’t feel the need to clarify that her statement isn’t motivated by malice. Nobody ever says ‘That dress looks amazing on you… no offense’.
Yes, Aria, intent does matter when determining if something is an attack or not. It’s not just some esoteric little meaningless bit of semantics, either. If I throw a rock at you, I’m attacking you. If I throw a rock out a window, and it hits you in the head, I’m not attacking you, even though you’ve been hurt by my actions.
Just because something makes you feel defensive doesn’t mean it’s an attack. And you used to know that. You used to understand that intent matters when evaluating someone’s statements and actions. And by ‘used to’, I meant like… last week when you asked me about how Isha read your response to Samira’s actions. Things you said there hinge on intent. Things Melisma says here hinge on intent.
Don’t go doing exactly the thing you didn’t like being done to you.
And if you throw your rocks near enough that they keep bouncing off, and you say you don’t mean to but keep doing it anyway, Arrendis?
I’ll … think about this. It might be I’m just tired, or else irritable, but …
… there are things about this …
I do feel attacked, Arrendis. Maybe I’m being both ungrateful and ungenerous, but Isha’s approach to confronting Ms. Priano was just awful, and while Melisma made a seemingly principled denial of my admittedly rather sharp translation of her remarks, she also didn’t clarify what I was supposed to take from them.
Which leaves me wondering how and whether I got them wrong at all.
I want to see good faith, here, but at this rate I wonder if I accepted whether I wouldn’t end up dueling my host.
In past sojourns, there’s never been an issue of trust. Maybe people might feel that there was or should have been an issue there with the Amarr, but I was always welcome to question and double-check stuff. And I did, partly because so much of what I was learning was hard for me to believe.
And there were Amarr that I clashed pretty directly with. Nicoletta Mithra and I have never really gotten along all that well (she knew my predecessor, and I don’t think she thinks we’re nearly different enough). There was one who I kind of never got around to telling I was a heathen while we conversed about his beliefs, and who felt lied to when he found out later.
But this … feels different. I don’t quite know what to do with it.
Questioning and double-checking are very different from challenging and insulting, Aria, and I think Melisma and Isha might feel you’ve been drifting closer to that last one than the first two. Question. Double-check things. Someone who wants to understand is doing themselves and their hosts a disservice if they don’t ask questions, after all.
But we are pretty passionate people. Push a button, and you’ll know.
