Did I misunderstand something badly, Deitra? I thought you were Matari all this time.
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We do have more than one planet, I wasn’t born on Matar, my clan wasn’t on Matar when I was born(Eram II), what right do I have to speak for those who grew up on that particular planet?
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Ah-- a totally different sort of misunderstanding on my part then.
Are the specifics of which planet you’re from usually that important? I kind of knew about the importance of clan and tribe, but I wasn’t aware specific homeworld played into it also.
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I don’t feel right speaking for my kin with regards to their own lands. I’m sure others do and will shortly, but I personally won’t. My clan, like all clans and tribes at one point did reside there for the most part but as we have our own lands it doesn’t seem right to speak for them.
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I can honestly say the planet I was born on has never been anything of concern. Mostly because I was born on a space station, just like about 95% of the Clan. 
But… and again, we come to that whole ‘all those tiny cultures’: How important is it? Depends on the Tribe and the Clan. Some are far more territorial than others.
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So, at my villa in Kaztropol, this tradesman came to the door, asking if I had any odd jobs that needed doing. So I say to him “could you get oiled up and thrash around on a rubber sheet while I throw oranges at you?”, and he says “that’s not what he had in mind”. So I say to him “Well are you looking for odd jobs or not?”.
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Last I checked, anyone who is not in open war against the Republic is welcome on Matar. It’s not like the planet is boarded up or anything. Now there might be places that require you to apply for a permit to visit (and not necessarily get it), like the Crystal Steppe and Caravanserai, so basicly places of great cultural importance, but anywhere else, I don’t see the problem why she couldn’t visit.
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This, incidentally, is also the reason I stopped sending long mails in reply to yours or discussing with you at length, ms Jenneth.
I recall we initially had some very good discussions as well on Matari culture and ways, but the debates, as you say, tend to be circlar. And what ultimately came out of it every single time is that you are simply far too attached to the current group you are with to stray too far from the party line.
I find this a bit unfortunate, because it has always felt to me that you had closed your mind off to the Minmatar viewpoint because it would conflict too much with the Amarr viewpoint. Discussions do grow meaningless when they are ultimately always shot down even when they do make a lot of sense. I felt as though I could make the absolute perfect argument and it would not matter.
And that is unfortunate, because that sense of “there is no point” also makes it nigh impossible to listen to any of your arguments with an open mind, and thus there is no way for me to acquire a more Amarr perspective, either.
I hope your upcoming trip to Matar might open your mind a touch. If I may be so bold as to say this, one can have an open mind towards the Minmatar without leaving the service of the Amarr. One can admire a rival Empire without leaving their current one.
It’s just frustrating that you automatically take their side, at times, it feels, simply because you feel you must because those are your friends.
Now, if that changes I am always happy to entertain further discussions, or, hell, a tour. I do not hail from Matar myself, but I do live on the Rens Treasury station for the time being. Perhaps you would be interested in seeing the Mission there.
Yes, I know, I can be stubborn too! I promise I’d try to be open-minded as well…
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Hm. So, there are several factors at play, Isha.
There’s the Amarrian perspective, of course, but, actually, I might be a little less under the sway of that than people naturally assume. I have my own reasons for following the Directrix, and while they overlap nicely with some Amarrian concerns they’re not really specifically Amarrian as such.
Then there’s the stuff from the Amarrian perspective that for reasons of duty or practicality I can’t actually say, so it’ll just look like I’m being stubborn. There’s always going to be some of that, as long as I’m bound to anyone.
Then also there’s this: my sect (and actually a whole lot of philosophy native to the State) is straightforwardly morally relativistic. What’s right for you isn’t necessarily going to be right for me, and I don’t blame the Amarr when they do what seems right to them even if I don’t agree. The place I start getting a little blame-y is usually where I see someone doing something that violates their own ideas of right and wrong or where it fundamentally undercuts their society, which I have trouble seeing as “right.” It’s why I get a little twitchy about Federals ignoring the rule of law, Matari murdering their own kin (“necessary” or not), Templis Dragonaurs compromising Caldari society with thick-headed xenophobic stupidity, and, well, the Sani Sabik just in general (the philosophy’s socially corrosive, and gods I wish the Federation seemed to understand that).
I’m a little sensitive to other people’s feelings, which is why I start closing down a bit when the passion gets going, but really this is a pretty firm principle for me. And, actually, unless you’re willing to follow the Amarr and Gallente into universalism with all that entails (like, trying to destroy other people’s “wrong” cultures on the basis that they’re “wrong”), your own culture might even be a little bit the same way.
Basically, unless your “perfect argument” would apply not only to a Matari or even an Amarrian but also to an Achur exile, you’re correct: I’m interested in why you behave as you behave, but I’m unlikely to mirror you unless I see our contexts aligning. And considering that a part of my context is a personal stake in certain people’s well-being …
It’s hard to find a context, in my beliefs, that justifies turning my back on those I’m closest to. There can be some, but, it’s not an easy thing. I forfeited my right to call myself part of my original family years ago. I know the reasons, and I’m sure it felt nice at the time, but it’s not a disgrace I’ll bring on myself again.
I’m interested in your ideas, Isha, but primarily I’m interested in what they say about you and how your world works. If I already know what you’re saying, I’ll be a little less interested. And if the main purpose appears to be to knock me around and/or make me do something I regard as clearly wrong for me, such as breaking my oath or harming loved ones?
Yes, that will be an exceptionally hard sell.
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I’m sure you see yourself as such and wholly believe in what you say, and I sort of respect your conviction…
But generally for an outside observer you just look like a wishy-washy useful idiot for your Directrix that has no own stance on anything at all.
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A little context for that one? I mean, murder’s bad, you know?
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I’d hazard a guess the conflict against Ammatar is what she means. Could be wrong.
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A while ago, someone-- a friend-- quoted a line at me (I’m sure it wasn’t her own): “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.”
It’s a catchy line, which probably just illustrates the danger of catchy lines because I think it’s completely wrong-- like, the opposite of true. I think most people are relatively likely to swallow a lie and ask for seconds if it comports with their beliefs, but will tend to reject truths that don’t.
If you want to trick someone, it’s best to tell them things you know they want to hear.
I generally maintain a modest level of skepticism about anything I hear from just about anybody about just about anything-- I use both “truth” and “lie” labels sparingly. That doesn’t mean I can’t be lied to, but there’s not much I strongly want to hear that isn’t personal.
Closeness, friendship, warmth, love, family-- yes, those would be good ways to manipulate me. They’re also a little hard to fake, especially over time, so, actually, the most reliable way of doing that would just be to offer me the genuine article. Getting me to regard a place as my home and its people as my treasured teachers, comrades, or loved ones is indeed an excellent way to win my loyalty. Shelter and warmth-- it worked for PY-RE, it worked for SFRIM.
Haha! How sneaky of them! Somehow I don’t mind so much.
Isha tells me there was some degree of political purge (like, bloody) about the time Maleatu Shakor took power, Arrendis. I don’t know the details, but she defends it as necessary. Historically, I’ve regarded a reluctance to turn your backs on your own for basically any reason as a major cultural difference between the Matari and Caldari (who greatly prioritize group survival and have that “food’s running low; time for Grandpa to take a walk in the snow” thing in their cultural DNA). So, it stuck in my head as a, “This can’t be right for you-- can it?” thing.
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We’ve been murdering our own kin for one reason or another for generations. Tribal wars, political purges, ‘religious differences’, it’s hardly a one off. Then again, I don’t think any of the four empires have much of a moral high ground on that front.
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Unfortunately, Aria, that’s just not true. That not being true is, in fact, the basis for the most successful con games across the span of history, and the stock in trade of every good spy. The things everyone wants… they’re the things we’re predisposed to accept, even more than regular old confirmation biases. That doesn’t mean you should accept them… that’d be a miserable way to live… but don’t fool yourself into thinking those things are hard to fake.
Well, there was definitely a political purge around the time of Shakor’s ascension, yeah. I mean, Midular disbanded the parliament, you know? The bloody, violent ‘purge’ that occurred shortly before that… is complicated.
The people who carried that out were affiliated with the Elder Fleet forces who attacked CONCORD and the Amarr at the same time. More, their targets were members of Parliament who’d been acting as agents of Amarr’s intelligence services. Evidence was allegedly (because, you know, I wasn’t there, I didn’t see the evidence) left with each and every body they dropped.
So, with the caveat that those claims could all be lies, and the evidence all fabricated… if true… which side was the ones violating Matari ideas of right and wrong, or fundamentally undercutting our society? The violent extremists, or the members of government working for a hostile foreign power?
I mean, I know I’d have preferred all of the evidence to come out, those MPs locked up, and have a public trial before letting the mobs tear them to pieces with our bare hands, but… you know, half of one, six dozen of the other, right?
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I want to talk about this a little as well actually.
In general, I would say you’re fairly accurate here. The Matari social structure is designed somewhat like an inverse pyramid of expanding relationships, with the individual as a point at the bottom. As the pyramid begins to widen it passes through Family, Circle, Clan, and finally Tribe. A Matari will (usually; there are of course exceptions to every rule) consider each of these social levels a fundamental part of themselves, and work to their best ability to protect and develop these structures and all the other Matari who make them up. When one is threatened, we close ranks around them. There’s a reason we’re still fighting for the decendants of our kin taken hundreds of years ago.
However, there are several notable exceptions. A few cultural hangups that can result in a Matari being more or less rejected out of hand.
A bad Voluval is the most obvious and most inescapable. Rather than go into great detail, I invite you to look up Vo’Shun.
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Aaah. Okay, thanks, Arrendis.
(About the “intelligence agencies” thing-- that’s of course true, except that I wouldn’t regard that as “easy.” Applying it to my present circumstances sounds like it could make a good holo-thriller script.)
Already did a while back, Kala-- it gets cited sometimes by Imperial loyalists as a reason to think Matari hands aren’t wholly clean when it comes to inflicting dark fates on others, part of the predictable round-and-round. It seems like it’s a little more complicated than just, like, kicking someone out of the village because a crow sat on the roof at the moment of their birth, though.
Thanks.
(What’s a “Circle,” and how big is it usually? Are we talking about like a circle of friends, or … extended family?)
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Either, or both! It’s a slightly malleable concept really, but a reasonable description would be “the people you choose to have in your life”.
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That is a concept I can really relate to!
… I guess maybe almost everyone can.
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Or the more formalized circles containing certain vocations, certain services, and so on. It depends on the society in question when it comes to the details.
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