On buying slaves free

I would just like to point out that while capsuleers could easily repeatedly by entire regions’ SCC markets empty of slaves to set them free, this is generally not done at “fair prices”, because it is accepted wisdom that it feeds slave raids and slave trade. Mock orders of 0.01 isk to transfer legal papers are more common, and some question even that practice.

We do buy people into freedom, obviously. Concerted campaigns, targetted groups. But rarely indiscrimnantly.

3 Likes

Explain further what you mean by fair prices?

It does feed the slave trade because when you buy more slaves just to set them free it means a lack of supply to meet the slave trades demands for actually using those slaves which means a more cornered supply of slaves on the market that can be sold at a higher price to people who actually need them for use.

In some ways it is probably more profitable to sell off an excess of slaves at a cheap price just to keep the value up higher on what little are left to sold when potential buyers try to fill their needs for more slaves.

This way more slaves get freed at a lower price while also keeping the profits healthy for the slave market being supplied with fewer slaves being put to work.

Unfortunately this does mean that those slaves who get bought for slavery are probably also going to have to work that much harder being fewer of them and paid for at a higher cost.

However, if you can put the ethics aside from my previous comment it really is a win-win for both the slaves and the slave trades in the end.

Needs of the many, or whatever…

The slavers and the slaves actually being used will be fewer while slave traders get to make a more healthy profit and at the same facilitate freeing more slaves than they actually sell for profit.

Now I know what your thinking…what about the slave raiders, doesn’t this just keep them in business the whole time? Yes, in a matter of speaking it does but it also means that most of the slaves they capture are ultimately getting freed as well. Keeping them payed…they got it hard enough as is with all those minmatards running around giving them such a hard time.

Anyways, don’t blame me for pointing out the logic in the whole situation I am just an honest businessman speculating the potential of a market I am not involved with in any which way.

Would like to add however if you were talking about cheaper ways to get slaves or get them for free, whether for use or giving them freedom, you could also try to employ mercenaries for suicide ganking cargo with slaves in them and both you and those who survive would benefit depending on your intentions.

The cargo that gets lost however, well if you were going to use them as slaves anyways they were saved from a much harsher fate in the long run.

Almost doing them a favor even if you didn’t intend on freeing them.

Until they up their breeding programmes to meet the demand and more slaves than ever before become a partbof the system. Unfortunately, slaves are not a finite resource to make supply and demand a long-term target for those who wish to stop the trade altogether.

I don’t understand your logic, increasing supply because the demand is higher as a way to make more profit? That would just dilute the value of the slaves already being sold and keep the demands satisfied so as not to keep as many returning customers paying at a higher rate…

Are you inferring that the breeding of slaves is ultimately just a means to increase the population of former slaves who were freed in the end more than to actually support or profit with the slave trade itself?

Well freeing slaves aside if I use your logic, the slavers, slave traders and breeders are simply a means of increasing the population of another society made of freed slaves and anything they do to impede that sort of business is ultimately and coincidentally producing genocide of their own people.

You are looking at slaves as if they are a freely and regularly traded commodity on the whole across the market and that there would exist a means of making a margin on said commodity, Mr Hyasyoda.

This is not the case. Amarrian slaves, on the whole, do not change hands overly often and tend to stay from generation to generation with the same Holder family, or at most a handful of Holder families through that particular slave’s bloodline. This is intended within Amarrian society as slaves are meant to be working off the sins of their forebearers while also being educated in the faith. A Holder would be disrespecting their duty if they treated their slaves purely as a commodity to margin trade or exchange at a frequent rate.

The listings for slaves on the Capsuleer market is a drop in the ocean compared to the general slave population and often serves as a means of offloading excess stock, so to speak, by Holders and/or organisations. The reasons for this are many and varied, from attempting to wash one’s hands of more troublesome slaves, trying to liquidate them due to urgent financial reasons, or simply looking to make an unscrupulous profit without any care of the end owner.

Trying to buy out slaves, or end slavery, in some kind of SCC market manipulation is a prime example of crying out into the wind.

8 Likes

This only confirms my theory that the slave trade is more about producing more future Minmatar citizens than actually putting people into slavery as there will always be more slaves breeded and freed than actually sold and put to use overtime.

With this level of economic and social engineering it seems that the former slaves themselves have become the new masters of their very own “Domain”.

While one side just wants a few slaves for honest labor another wants an assembly line for reproduction and recruitment as future soldiers for their war against the villainous Empire they propagandize.

Which is the greater evil? Who is trying to oppress and tyrannize the other?

If any of this is true…I don’t know I just follow the money, or in this case the numbers in the math.

That is a massive stretch, sir, with absolutely no founding apart from empty conclusions. ‘X’ happens, therefore ‘y’, without any demonstration of evidence how x actually connects to y. It’s also quite the lead from arguing slaves across the board are a good you can margin bet on and manipulate the price of easily.

Slaves, while indeed traded and sold for both legitimate financial reasons and also far less scrupulous ones, are not as a whole a regular marginable commodity like wheat is, for example. That is the only sound conclusion one can draw from knowing the facts. Again, to refer to the original post here, attempting to bet a position on the SCC as a means of freeing (mass purchases, price manipulation) slaves is not a tenable ongoing position since the SCC listings are not the majority of the slave market/population.

You make a point about the fallacy in the marginal inconsistencies on the economic focus of the slave trade versus existing slaves. I guess it does sound foolish to suggest that the slave trade itself could be a source of producing more slaves just to be freed.

With having gained former knowledge and experience I would have came to these same conclusions eventually and maybe that is just a good reason why I should never bother to trade in slaves.

… this is really not accurate. For one, the sale of slaves has no contradiction with traditional Amarrian religious beliefs about slave holding. If anything, it upholds it. For two, this does happen. Slaves are sold as a punishment, they are sold as a product (my lord’s family dealt in the training and sale of highly educated slaves for high-end occupations), they are sold as excess stock, they are traded around determined by capabilities (a slave trained or experienced in a field that is unneeded in the Holder’s industries), they are sold because they can no longer benefit the Holder that employs them (due to sickness, injury, stubbornness, etc), they are sold for collections or as trophies, and they are sold for pure profit to unscrupulous actors (sale of slaves for the purpose of sex trafficking, Sansha’s Nation, Nauplius, and to other foreigners by organizations like the Civic Court) in spite of religious customs.

Slave sale and trade is a massive industry in the Empire, one that some Holder families focus entirely on.

And many Holders have said that Amarr is in a state of slave shortage right now.

My point wasn’t slaves aren’t sold period, my point is they are not on the whole a commodity bought and sold with the frequency such that one can bet margin positions on, nor is it the case that as a general rule individual slaves on the whole are traded and moved between large numbers of holders within their own life time like a corporation stock or a futures bet on the price of wheat.

Slaves are indeed sold and traded, but under the basis of more of a long term commodity or investment, as they produce labour. The profits of that labour are one way to reclaim cost, as it’s unlikely you’re going to see a slave produce profit simply from margin trading their perceived value for every owner. That emphasis on labour production brings the likely average number of owners of a given slave down, since the primary value comes from its produce (similar to marketable investment bonds) not its fluctuating price (such as with stock or currency).

I also note my comments, again, were specifically in relation to the SCC market, since the original premise of the post was about freeing slaves from purchases on the SCC and also Mr Hyasyoda’s market manipulation tangent.

4 Likes

Two things:

When I spoke of “fair” price, I meant that as a trader technical term: market price with acceptable margin, not manipulated.

I spoke of the SCC market as an example of where the thinking already exists, because one, most people buying slaves free have limited access to internal Holder markets for fairly obvious reasons, and two, SCC market is only semi-legal (open trade, no checks whatsover for whether the buyer is legit) and thus feeds the raid markets even more directly.

Hope this clarifies.

2 Likes