If they weren’t, then the comment is simple to disregard as a misunderstanding.
The timing of the reply was merely the assumption, nothing more.
So apologies for the misunderstanding
No offense meant, none taken.
In a more general elaboration of my original intent though, IGS used to get this kind of what the modern youth calls “hot takes” weekly, if not daily. Used to be a time where capsuleers almost competed with each other in increasingly bizarre attempts to boast of their attempts to defy common sense and basic empathy — not that this doesn’t happen now, of course (it just did), but at least it involves more ridicule.
In that sense, OP’s proclamation wouldn’t have looked any more out of place in times of Heideran than it does now.
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The Jove were in Curse at the time, from what we know. They were nowhere near Luminaire, and their route to the regions we know them from later… doesn’t go anywhere near there, either. So no, there’s no reason to read ‘The Jove!’ into the stories of the Caldari mythology.
And it’s functionally the same as the ‘test of faith’ imagery littered through the Amarr Scriptures. It’s almost like idea of having to prove something predates all of those cultures as a concept carried by humanity through the Eve Gate into New Eden, or something. Humans defining themselves by concepts common to humanity! Shocking!
“the Abyss”
But did they though? How do we know the Triglavians always made “The Abyss” their home?
Moreover, the Drifters -are- Jove. This much is known. They are the survivors of the 2nd Empire Statics Faction. The ‘Jovian Disease’ they tried to escape from by placing themselves within the Construct is not entirely what we have been led to believe.
The Triglavians, in my opinion, are ALSO JOVE (but further removed) Allow me to explain.
The 2nd Empire Jove that settled around the Caroline Star region, FOUND the Dyson Sphere lattice around W477-P, The TALOCAN were the ones that created both it, AND Anoikis through this “stellar lattice”. The Directorate realized Anoikis was fabricated. The ability to focus the talos of the universe to serve their will. The method by which the Triglavians formed Pochven is TOO similar to that of the Talocan technology.
A controversial (yet nearly untouched) theory, is that the Triglavians -ARE- in fact the Talocan. To go back further, I believe the TALOCAN were remnants of the Modifiers faction of Jove.
Now to the “Jovian Disease”. There is evidence and heavily buried archives, that suggest during the war between the Statics and Modifiers, that the Statics unleashed an AI Virus in hopes of targeting the Modifiers, but they became the victim of their own weapon.
The Statics still respected the law of “One Body One Mind”, within the Construct, in hopes of finding -some- solution to the Jovian Disease. The “Drifters” are the emergent sentience from rampant runtime anomalies over thousands of years (or so we’ve been told).
The Modifiers, in order to preserve their society, placed their population’s infomorphs into a “DATA STORAGE ARRAY”.
The Triglavians created Pochven using the exact same technology used by the “Talocan” to create Anoikis. Which means whatever new “Stellar Lattice” was used to conduct the weaving of Pochven, perhaps exists within the Abyssal system they have been trapped in since the end of the overt war between them and the “Ancient Enemy Azdaja”. The name by which the Triglavians refer to the Drifters, in their endless Crusade battle cry that the Drifters must be eliminated at all costs.
To the benefit of whom?
Us?
Trigs?
Drifters taking the fight to Triglavians makes more sense with these individual pieces of historical data tied together.
The next step for the Triglavians is to open the next layer of Pochven, which could very well be their vector to return to K-Space en-masse.
But where does Sansha fit into all this?
Triglavians needed empire puppets.
If there is one thing becoming more evident with each major event over the past decade since the emergence of the Drifters, and then the Triglavians.
Is that we are -NOT- on the brink of an inter-galactic war.
We are about to realize we’ve been in the middle of one for our entire existence, and a centuries long clandestine ancient war, is about to spill out into New Eden in ways we don’t yet fully realize.
The time to pick a side may have already passed, and the fates connected those choices already sealed.
Perhaps not.
The Jove settled in Curse, yes.
They also got through the Dark Ages -MUCH- faster than the rest of us.
The datastreams that have been extracted from the Jove Observatories suggests they have been there for just as long.
I’ve always stated the possibility the Jove Observatories were in place and monitoring our evolution long before the Old Earth settlers even reached the stars again.
What’s not to say their intermingled existence predates the emergence of various religious and cultural evolutions? I would perhaps even go so far as to suggest the possibility of direct manipulation of said evolutions through manipulation.
New Eden and the fall and re-emergence of it’s Terran settlers, quite simply put, perhaps was a Jove Petri dish from the beginning.
The Observatory data streams would also lend to this theory.
@Aria_Jenneth Thank you for explaining a little bit of where you’re coming from. I’m a newly-made clone and having known nothing but what the Empire teaches the faithful so far, I find it interesting to learn about what the citizens of the other empires belive.
The reality or facts of our God aren’t necessarily evident to everyone. A tree gets its nourishment from within the earth, unseen by the naked eye yet we know that is true. Clouds form out of evaporated liquid but we can’t see the process with the naked eye yet we know that is true.
The presence of God is first felt in the heart and mind, in contradiction with all the filth we may encounter day to day. Then it is made evident by His creations and their temporal nature.
I understand that, looking at this world, it seems bereft of Goodness or of the presence of God but it only seems that way. Just because the school children do not see the principal it doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist.
Only, He isn’t Santa Claus ready to give at every turn, nor is He a performer to satisfy our curiosity.
Those who seek His presence and yearn to see His face must first submit to His will wholeheartedly.
God never turned His back on Man, it is Man who turned his back on God.
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Or they never experienced them, because they’d actually built up the infrastructure they needed to persist without connection through the Eve Gate. Kind of irrelevant, though.
There is no Observatory in Luminaire. That tells us the Jove weren’t interacting with the Caldari during the formative years of the Caldari and Gallente cultures—as does the fact that the Gallente/Garoun didn’t have the same myth structure, which you’d expect if the Jove were popping by the system to say hello in ways that left a lasting mark on the population of Snowball Prime.
They wouldn’t have direct eyes on the Caldari until after the Federation forms and colonizes Algogille.
They don’t. They only lend credence to the idea that at some point after the various empires started moving out into space again, the Jove found reason to keep tabs on them with their cloaked observatories. It doesn’t establish when the Observatories started their watch, or even why. For all we know, the order of events is: The Amarr start reverse-engineering star gates > The Jove notice this because they still have some means of receiving telemetry from the pre-crash gates > They start establishing the observatories to see who the hell else is out there, and whether or not they should make contact.
I’m not saying that is the order of events, mind you. I’m saying ‘we don’t know’. Your conspiracy theory, otoh, makes a lot of assumptions and claims that there’s just no evidence to support.
For example, this bit?
You mean rapid-growth of crystals inside the existing stargates to cut them off, and deployment of their own gates to connect those 27 systems with one another? The systems of Pochven are still right where they were. They have not moved. You can use cynos to jump from those systems to the non-Poch lowsec systems that were always in range. It’s just a new set of stargates, and ‘spoooOooOOOooooky’ phrasing that made everyone lose their damned minds about ‘the weaving of Pochven’. Nobody wove anything. They just broke the stargates.
They very much don’t seem to act like Sansha are theirs, what with that whole ‘kill them with FIRE’ approach, and hating the Sansha to the point where we’ve recovered records of trigs self-immolating because they’ve been touched by the Sansha hive-mind.
So, yeah, let’s just say I think your reasoning makes a lot of very large, very flawed assumptions, piled on top of one another to come up with…
How? Nothing happens except by God’s Will, so Man was acting in accordance with God’s Will. That means it’s God doing the turning away, cuz if He didn’t will it, it don’t happen.
It should not make sense, even for all of you heathens, that God’s will would consist of man being incapable of sin or that God orchestrates all of your sin down to the finest detail. Nowhere does it say that God wills each and every sin except where heathens make it up to justify their disbelief in God.
God gave man free will as a whole, and our lives are man’s trial for redemption. God most certainly is not what you, Arrendis and the rest of you heathens, think a God should be if there happened to be one with your low orbit intelligence.
Just because a Jove observatory didn’t exist in Luminaire does not prove the Jove weren’t interacting with the Caldari, no more than the absence of such structure around other empire homeworlds would prove the same.
They were already capable of generating wormholes on their own even before Vak’Atioth.
Sub-surface listening stations with the same communication technology that linked the Observatories together are absolutely a viable option.
True the existence doesn’t establish when they “started their watch”. However, it does bring into question -when- they did. They could have been established as part of the second empire. However, the architecture of the Jove Observatories does not fully align with our limited understanding of second empire specifications. It does not align with Talocan architecture either.
Even the Directorate has lost much knowledge surrounding the 1st Jovian empire.
It is also true their survival through the Dark Ages was due to their self-sufficient ideology, having felt very little impact compared to the rest of the cluster when the gate closed.
The collapse of the EVE gate, and the first recorded Caldari civilization was well over 8000 years after the collapse. This is an incredibly wide timeframe for the Jove to have far surpassed the other empires both culturally and technologically.
23121-09-11 - Updated Gallente status provides a model for social cohesion. Suggest further observations are shared with Modifier enclaves.
23146-05-20 - Azbel-Wuthrich experiment has been a success. Planetary communications reveal the message as “:-)”
23154-12-12 - Randomized sweeps of recently seceded Caldari communications indicate that alternative source for model of social cohesion will be increasingly defined by opposition to Gallente model. Schism becoming pronounced. Threshold for constructive comparison of existing conditions approaching.
23180 AD - First contact between Gallente and Amarr, soon after Amarr comes into contact with Caldari, and the Jovians.
23194-02-01 - Gallente have created an agency known as The Scope for the dissemination of information across Empires. Suggest that this network be monitored. Potential to extrapolate Compact for impartial communication between disparate enclaves.
Looking at these data fragment alone, “Updated Gallente status”, this insinuates they had cataloged the Gallente civilization well prior to this, and suggested the monitoring had been ongoing for some time.
The Jove wished to remain hidden, and they did so successfully for -many- years (who knows how long for certain).
The first gate between Amarr and Hedion was constructed 21,290 AD, this is a timeframe of over 12,000 years for the Jovians to have done all manner of exploration, expansion, monitoring, and even fighting their own civil wars.
While there are many aspects of Jove that we still don’t fully understand, one thing is certain.
We still do not fully understand -WHY- the Jove interfered, or for how long. But to call my theory nothing more than conspiracy, ignores the available evidence that -does- lend to the possibilities my theory proposes.
Jovians seek a cure to the Jovian Disease. That much has always been certain. But perhaps they came to the conclusion that their salvation lies in humanity. After all, they -are- still human.
For all we know, the Jove gave the Caldari the capsule technology in hopes to recreate the conditions of their own societal downfall, perhaps to “identify” the point of no return before it happened again.
Perhaps the emergent sentients from the Sleeper Constructs were the solution the Stasis Faction (Sleepers) came to within the Construct. An Infomorph free of the digital aspects of the Jovian Disease. Then they needed bodies to put those Infomorph copies into. Is there any indication the Drifters also experience the same Jovian Disease symptoms? Maybe they don’t?
Many questions remain. But there is enough similarity within the knowledge we do have access to when it comes to the Drifters and Triglavians, that they may very well different names for the same ancient entity.
I suggest the possibility in the search of an ancient truth.
Also with the hopes that we can discover this truth, and learn from history, before we once again repeat it.
Ah, but it’s not what I say, it’s what one of the True Amarr say: That nothing happens without God’s will. That means God wills people to sin… except that if they’re doing God’s will… it’s not sin, because sin is, even by the Amarr Rite, disobedience to God.
Keep stubbornly dancing circles around it, that is the reason man’s redemption has required reclaiming by force.
Sure, but Amarr, by that point, had been playing with stargates for two thousand years. 23121 is when the Federation forms. As you point out, that indicates they’d catalogued the Gallente civilization… but no mention of the Caldari? If the Jove had contact with the Caldari, specifically, then you’d think that notation about the formation of the Federation between the two world of Luminaire would have mentioned them, too.
But no, we don’t get a mention of the Caldari until 23154, right before the Gallente-Caldari war begins a year later.
No, it does not. If you want your speculations to be considered more than just wild speculations, demonstrate date that requires it. Show something that can’t be explained without invoking the Jove. The Caldari adopting a belief that their existence on a borderline-inhospitable ball of ice is a test of their fitness, rather than simply ‘we were in the process of terraforming when we caught a spot of legendarily bad luck’ isn’t it.
Humanity never likes to believe that their suffering is a result of arbitrary chance. We grasp for reasons, for purpose, because we’ve got these pattern-matching engines in our skulls, and guess what! Those things look for patterns. All the time.
If you look hard enough for a pattern, you’ll find one. Even if it’s not there. Hundreds of generations of human beings desperately trying to make ‘why are we stuck in this frozen hellscape?!?’ fit into some kind of rational pattern that isn’t just ‘because we rolled and the dice came up snake eyes’ is all the explanation that needs. It doesn’t need any additional assumptions, or new elements added. Just the people we know were on Caldari Prime, and the tendency of human beings to act like human beings.
Sought. Were. They’re dead now, other than the reconstituted corpses flying those Drifter hulls.
Are you seriously asking if the reconstituted corpses made out of generic reprocessed biomatter shows signs of a genetic disease none of the biomatter they’re sculpted out of have the genes for?
… No. No, the Trigs are not the same ancient entity as their ‘ancient enemy’. Otherwise, they’d probably call the Drifters something more like ‘us’.
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Dancing circles around what? If sin is disobedience to God, and nothing happens without God’s Will, then you can’t sin.
It’s not my fault that you lot made a religion that’s so eager to justify your leaders deciding to do whatever the hell they wanted to do at the time, that it ended up inherently self-contradictory.
I mean, seriously, you’ve got a religion based on ‘This book says you need to do whatever the guy who owns the book says’, and somehow, that didn’t trigger your ‘this is a SCAM’ sensor?
Show me a religion that seeks to put power in the hands of people who aren’t its prophets, and maybe you’ll have something credible. Until then, it’s…
‘Do what I say!’
‘Why?’
‘God says you have to!’
‘Says who?’
‘Me!’
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That.
So I’m dancing circles around something I said? How? I said it!
I refer back to the low orbit comment.
So your position is that you can’t explain your position, you’re just going to double-down on ad hominem attacks? Well, that’s certainly one way to demolish your own argument.
Doesn’t really help you against the other person’s, though…
It’s not my fault that you lot made a religion that’s so eager to justify your leaders deciding to do whatever the hell they wanted to do at the time, that it ended up inherently self-contradictory.
And people wondered why the Drifters were so aggressive toward the Amarr empire.
The book says you looked at me wrong, now I take your eye. The book says you have to be a slave to enjoy salvation, how? why? Because a corrupt theocratic ruling class says so and they can back it up with weapons?
The Theocracy State of Amarr -BEGAN- with a self proclaimed PROPHET in 8000 AD
Amarr also felt like their divine power meant GOD chose them to subjugate the Jovians. Well look how well that turned out for them.
At what point is “defiance” of “God’s will” considered sin?
Was it when the Talocan sought to fashion the galaxy to their own design?
How does Amarr justify slavery? Oh, it’s in service to “God’s Chosen” leadership, because only they have the ability to interpret the “will” of god? That by serving the “Empire of God’s chosen” people, they may one day earn salvation for their sins?
We all inherently sin? We’re all evil and have to be saved?
Two of the most potent forms of total mind control.
Convince people they are absolutely worthless, evil, and less than nothing.
Then convince those same people that doing what they’re told and suffering a lifetime of subjugation to a small chosen few, is the only way to wash away your inherent filthy sins.
Perhaps the accusation of sin should be laid at the feet of those that deem themselves superior to others rather than working toward an equal level of respect and understanding of one another.
I suffered through the indoctrination in my younger years with the repetitive “promise of salvation” perpetually echoed by those in positions of power. As I got older, and began to question this “promise of salvation” being echoed by those whose depraved and horrifying actions would be -FAR- more in line with the definition of -SIN-, than a humble slave ever would.
So is it now God’s will that BILLIONS suffer inhospitable, inhumane, and downright brutal treatment by “Gods Chosen Few”. All in the name of “Salvation”.
Perhaps the definition of SIN to the Amarr is with an outward projection of perspective that allows them to shield themselves from the depravity of their own actions.
There is such a thing as free will even within God’s grand plan.
We are not Pinocchios. There are no strings on us.
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