The Oneiros and Guardian get similar bonuses, but their roles as armor logi are a bit different because they aren’t identical. I was told the Guardian is meant to operate in small groups in a cap chain to sustain capacitor to each other, and any allies that need it, and repair allies’ armor. So armor and capacitor aid. The Oneiros is meant to be able to operate when separated from other logistics cruisers, but I’m told the capacitor can last a long time with no external help in most builds and it has boosts for accuracy for their allies, so it is armor and optimal range aid. Interestingly, if the Oneiros is in a fleet where 7/8 of the ships are Gallente, this will serve the fleet well since railguns will have difficulty running the capacitors dry if there isn’t a MWD running but they can certainly benefit the extra optimal range, so helping ships with armor and optimal range works well. I guess Oneiros isn’t meant to work with Caldari Kestrel, Jackdaws, and Ravens since not only are they shield tanks but their missiles don’t get extended time from a remote tracking computer.
A look at Large Armor Repairer II shows it Repair an ally in optimal range for 512 HP for 365 GJ, so that’s 1.402 HP/ GJ. Meanwhile, Imperial navy Armor Repairer can repair 1035 HP for 450 GJ, or 2.3 HP/ GJ. Of course large armor repair, local and remote, are generally battleship modules. But, logistics ship gets bonuses! A maxed out pilot in the Oneiros or Guardian gets a 65% reduction in fitting requirements and 75% reduction in capacitor use for remote armor repair modules, bringing a Large Armor Repairer II down to 68.4 GJ meaning one non-storyline module can heal 7.828 HP/GJ, very nice.
It’s easy to understand why the Guardian is meant to operate in a cap chain. It doesn’t have enough capacitor to keep 4 Large Armor Repairers going by itself, but if it gets a capacitor transfer, it can sustain a capacitor transfer and the armor repairers. This also gives immunity to neuts since it can just get more from its partner.
I’m not sure how the Oneiros is meant to be a more self sufficient armor repair ship. The Oneiros has 1925 GJ of capacitor, which is less than the Guardian so it will actually run out faster and it doesn’t have the option to cap chain. I’d be easy to understand how it would work independently if it had a capacitor of 7000 GJ, even if it had triple the time to recharge as the Guardian, but it’s base stats don’t seem to suggest more local sustainability. Or is the Oneiros supposed to use one of those extra mid slots for a capacitor battery?
Yeah, when designing fits for logi, you’ll have to balance tank, cap, utility, repping power, and targeting stuff (i.e. faster lock times, more locked targets, ECCM) (and sometimes speed and sig rad). So, it’s up to you what you put in your mids on your Oneiros. What i can say, however, is that it’s extra mids make it easier to customize the ship to fit your needs.
The Exeq has some small use in small gangs where you can only get 1-2 people flying logi. same with the T1 minmatar. The T2 logi for both minmatar and gal are only ever used when you don’t have a group organized enough to fly the cap chain logi. guardians and basi will always be able to put out more reps and have them be more sustained particularly the basi vs the scyth as they can run an ASB with no charges.
The tracking computer bonus is almost completely useless on the Onei and it is useless on the scyth
As my alliance mostly uses shield fleets, I don’t have experience flying the Oneiros, but I guess the Oneiros versus Guardian is similar to how the Scimitar and the Basilisk compare and I fly those last two ships two a lot.
The Basilisk, as a cap-chain ship like the Guardian, has an unlimited amount of capacitor to have all remote repairers and MWD active 100% of the time… if the cap chain is unbroken.
This is a strength, but also a weakness. ECM or logi ships that get one-shot (alphaed) by enemy fleets breaks the cap chain, which can quickly drain capacitor if MWD and repairers keep running, which can then result in multiple cruisers that cannot keep up with the fleet and will likely be killed if they dn’t adjust their capchain quick.
The Scimitar does not have endless cap, but is also much less reliant on other ships. This means ECM or logi ships that get killed means ‘just one ship’ taken out, rather than multiple as there are no cap chain buddies that could be affected by the (temporary) loss of a ship.
Also the Scimitar is much quicker than the Basilisk, which means that for some fleets you cannot use Basilisks as they cannot keep up with the rest of the fleet, while Scimitars can.
As I said, I don’t gave experience flying the Oneiros, but I’m sure there are scenarios in which you prefer to use an Oneiros over a Guardian, just like there are good reasons to use a Scimitar over a Basilisk, if only because while a cap chain may be strong, it can also be a weakness in a fleet.
The thing is that the Oneiro’s capacitor base stats are actually sllllightly inferior to the Guardian capwise (not speed or armor or even hull tank wise though). So it has no cap chain option and a smaller base cap. So I was wondering how it was supposed to be less reliant for external cap if it’s native capaictor wasn’t any stronger.
Or maybe the player is supposed to realize the extra mid slot means you’re supposed to slap an extra large battery (if you run 3 large remote reps or downgrade an armor plate), or medium battery (if you go with 4 large remote reps and a full sized armor plate) and this “you can put a battery here” is what makes the Oneiro more independent than the Guardian?
One alliance I heard of before I joined my current corp when it was trying to attack a structure their plan to seperate the logi from the damage ships that they forgot not all logi were sluggish, so it took seven times longer than they expected to kill some ships resulting in more freidnly loses and the result was that after putting the thing on a timer, they had to extract without taking from the wrecks.
Edit: Looks lik the Scimitar is in the same boat as the Oneiro of having inferior base capacitor.
Don’t forget that while remote cap transfers give you capacitor, it also requires capacitor to be used. Basilisks and Guardians are expected to have more active modules that heavily drain your cap, so it’s not strange they have slightly better base cap (even if you ignore the unlimited cap from a cap chain, as a cap chain won’t be up 100% of the time in a less than ideal universe).
The Scimitar and Oneiros don’t have those high slots that require cap, and instead get extra mid/low slots that potentially give more cap stability.
Have you actually played with fits? It is not hard to make cap stable Oneiros. It is especially not hard if you want to just go with a cap stable fit with 3 reps running and still like 10 min of cap with all 4 since you often can get away with not having to run all 4 all the time depending on your fights.
I just took a Guardian Template some of my allies used and then slapped the modules on a simulated Oneiros, minus the capacitor transmitters, which obviously don’t have the high slots (or powergrid) to work with and wouldn’t be of any use anyways. It was then I noticed the base capacitor wasn’t actually any better. I guess the idea is to slap on a capacitor battery in one of the extra mid slots?
this one depends. larger fleets with longer expected engagements should use capacitor batteries where for smaller fleets I recommend a booster. these two modules are more for cap war resistance than actual cap stability.
another thing that gives the minm and gal logi an advantage is you can’t boosh them all off at once away from the fleet. the oni has less of an advantage here because guardians can fit scrams pretty easy and I recommended it any time your not expecting heavy ECM. They are also tackier do to generally higher speed and lower sig.
they aren’t cap stable but a good pilot can do amazing things with a 10mn oni.
The biggest problem I have with the T2 for gal and minmatar is there is not many fleets that they are your best choice. Between T3 logi and the cap chain logi there is almost always a better choice.
one last thing the onei gets some pretty strong logistics drones do to the higher bandwith and the T2 logi bonuses to them. in numbers these things do a lot of work cost 0 cap and can continue to rep even if you get jammed. If CCP would make logistics drones act more like the rest of the drones in eve I think it would give the minm gal T2 a viable place in the meta.
