International tensions are rising fast. Republic Fleet and Amarr Navy are staring each other across border gates. Skirmishes have already happened and things are looking to escalate. Fighting has also broken out in EDENCOM facilities troops from different nations.
Meanwhile, the Black Dagger murder numbers are rising and there has been a related mass terror attack already, killing hundreds. This shows that we too are vulnerable to such attacks against civilians and have been too lax controlling movements of outsiders.
It is clear that in the current situation, allowing garrisons of hostile forces inside Republic borders is madness; we cannot afford the security risk they pose, both for overt and covert warfare.
EDENCOM facilities and all related resources inside Tribal territory must be immediately turned over to full Republic Command control. Republic Fleet stationed in hostile territory must return home immediately.
Their benefits of being in my home system are certainly starting to become moot with all that is going on. EDENCOM have no jurisdiction in our space, I would like to see them try and levy it out from under us here in Dammalin. If we can hold control against Triglav, we can wrestle control back to our own from EDENCOM if it so comes to it.
Ah, good play. I imagine, since it was a joint venture, that the facilities were only partly paid for by the Republic? And now you wish ownership of them outright, while not bothering to upkeep the Republic’s end of the deal in foreign space?
My people have a term: freunich veeriter. It means “someone who’s your friend, until it’s advantageous for them not to be”.
The true ‘price’ of the facilities was mostly paid for on the backs of the Republic Fleet. Though it was EDENCOM command coordinating efforts, it’s not as though there was any ‘free pass’ to build… whatever infrastructure was put.
If EDENCOM and CONCORD itself should actually wish to de-escalate the tensions in the aftermath of the events of this last week, relinquishing control to Republic fortresses to the Republic itself is one thing that would be a step towards that goal. At the end of the day, these Fortresses are vaguely defined infrastructure build in Tribal space at the behest of an organization with an Amarr loyalist at the helm that remain standing after the conflict in which they served purpose has more or less ended.
Likewise, having Republic Fleet in enemy territory where ‘something could happen’ so easily to the isolated units is just a bad idea. They should return to the Republic. The Empire doesn’t need their help, given how extraordinarily well the Imperial Navy performed during the Invasions. The Caldari State certainly does need help, given how pathetic its navy was. But the sort of help the State Navy needs is the development of a basic understanding of one of the primary munitions it utilizes as well as the simplest of combat tactics… and well… honestly it’s not the Republic Fleet’s job to train a potential enemy in the face of a likely conflict…
Turning the fortresses over to the respective factions containing them would boost defensive capabilities for everyone. That would provide some modest disincentive for offensive adventurism. Even a modest disincentive would be helpful under the circumstances. I’m sure the State has worked out whatever the issue was, and would now benefit from assuming control over the fortresses in its own territory just like everyone else.
The State won early victories, particularly in Samanuni. I was there myself, and saw the Navy hold proverbial ground against the invaders. I have a feeling it was latter developments that caused the Triglavians to begin to outmatch our fleets, both potential doctrinal and technical changes on the Triglavian end, and command restructuring on the Navy’s end. And it is true, our vaunted electronic countermeasures failed to achieve the kind of success one wishes to see. But such is the way things go when facing an unknown enemy. There is something to be said for preparing for any outcome, but one can only prepare so much, and when there are three potential hostile empires, and numerous other criminal and mercenary organizations, to take into consideration, I think it can be understood that the Navy was not able to react to every eventuality.
You seem so quick to speak bad of the State, but if I recall, it is our representative to the Inner Circle that is in fact leading de-escalation efforts between the Empire and your Republic. Far be it from us, though, to try and keep the peace. Perhaps we should just let two foaming dogs off the chain and watch them savage eachother.
But that is another matter. We’re talking about how some people are calling for the Republic to take things that were never fully owned by them. Considering the first attack was from the Republic’s own people, and now there are calls to appropriate things that were jointly created, one could offer up the suggestion that the initial attack was indeed government sanctioned, and is being used as a false flag to seize assets and reposition military forces ahead of a secret assault?
Do look at it from the State’s perspective. Forces belonging to two empires who’ve been hostile to us in the past suddenly attack our ally, and we’re to be fine with them pulling out from a joint venture in the fears of “things might happen”? You, Matari, were not attacked. You can not play victim.
I know. I was there. I know each of the State’s wins and losses, minor and major. I was one of the prominent FCs on the EDENCOM capsuleer alliance and fought in each of the four empires despite my personal feelings towards them.
The Amarr Navy was very ready for the threats. The Republic Fleet and Federal Navies were reasonably prepared. Nobody else was perfect, but effort and preparation were clear for the other three nations. The Caldari Navy wasn’t just a little off. They were pathetic.
I didn’t claim the State was responsible for flaring tensions nor disparage anything your Inner Circle representative did. But in the case that a full-on war breaks out between the Republic and the Empire, the State and Federation will necessarily be dragged into the war. The balance of power in New Eden is delicate and each nation needs its ally or else it’ll get run over by the other two. There cannot be a true war that does not involve everyone.
One can argue whatever they want, but it’s baseless speculation. With the Imperial forces fully mobilized on our borders, we need all the Fleet home. The Fleet is also clearly in danger of retaliatory attacks if stationed in enemy space. Anyone competent can see that.
Would you want a Federal loyalist to order ‘Fortresses’ built in your region without clearly defined purposes or terms? Honestly, the Empire’s going to eventually come for the State too. That’s its M.O.
Maybe you’ll worry a bit more about Kasiha’s Fortresses then (despite them being so few in number within your borders).
I’m not Matari. I’m an Amarr defector.
But more to the point, the Republic has been constantly attacked both under and above the table. Even right now, there’s a string of murders coming out of the threads of a Blooder who at one point was on the Theology Council. My hope is that the Brutor Vanguard did indeed capture him. The Empire would just silence him because he’s inconvenient for them. Maybe we’ll actually get what he knows out of him.
The heavy lifting against the triglavian invaders was done by freedom loving minmatar and gallente freedom fighters. Look around. The Caldari State lost a pile of systems. The systems that were defended properly, even in Caldari space, were done on the backs of thousands of minmatar ships. They probably would have lost fewer solar systems if the navy had pointed the guns at the trigs instead of the loyal matari militia members trying to help maintain free space.
I think it is the rest of the galaxy that owes the republic, not the other way around. We don’t tend to waste capital resources floating around in highsec watching the place a royal was last seen dancing 3 years prior.
Sadly, seems we’ve overstayed our welcome outside republic borders, so we’ll just pull back and let all the chips fall where they may.
The glory of Amarr’s performance in holding off the Triglavian threat underscores the reasonableness of Elsebeth’s request. It is not something that would achieve partisan advantage. I don’t know what happened in the State, but it will have forced changes. Arsia is also correct to suggest it is “awkward” for foreign units to be deployed inside each faction. If everyone “goes to their rooms,” there is a better chance to avoid a catastrophic misunderstanding.
Small fly in the ointment, so long as we are talking about the extent of which the Amarr benefited from EDENCOM. During the course of the invasion, the Republic succeeded in successfully establishing a total of six fortresses to act as redoubts against invasion… Triglavian or otherwise if they become guarissoned entirely by the Republic Fleet.
Before there’s a rabble over the Republic gaining six strongholds, keep in mind that the Amarr gained in total
35 Fortress Systems.
Clearly with the current situation facing the cluster the Republic has the right to enforcing their borders and preventing subversion by the Empire as well as pulling their troops from EDENCOM fortresses in Amarr space. However if thats the route they want to go down, they are setting an uncomfortable president that potentially gives the Amarr Empire nearly six times as many heavily fortified systems ahead of what very well may be a full scale conflict. If that happens, congratulations, you’ve handed them a full scale mobilization program and a complex defense in depth system.
Before anyone accuses me as an outsider of having no say in this, the power imbalance between EDENCOM fortress distribution effects all empires equally and very well could create a situation where one side feels like they have the marginal strategic advantage they need to conduct total war. None of us benefit from that.
The clear solution here isn’t simply to return ownership of EDENCOM fortresses to their host empires, but to demobilize EDENCOM Fortresses in their entirety across New Eden.
I can’t agree. The fortresses represent, even if tentatively, a putting aside of grievances and a coming together in common defense. Am I the only one here who doesn’t want escalating hostilities? And what if there is another Triglavian invasion? Or something worse?
It is a risk, but there is no free lunch. Six times the bases means six times the costs. In turn, any resources spent cannot be spent again on offensive capabilities. Historical examples of impregnable defensive lines do not suggest they create advantages for aggressors. Meanwhile, getting fleets “back where they belong” reduces opportunities for misunderstanding and skulduggery.
If the Triglavian threat were not still present, I would completely agree with you on disbanding the bases entirely. But as pointed out above, that seems like it would create a bigger risk than the potential for Amarrian aggression due to strong defensive capabilities.
No, they don’t. In each empire, the ‘EDENCOM’ naval forces were simply the forces of that empire’s navy, operating under centralized command and control from the AEGIS division of CONCORD—which is already all four empires. And the EDENCOM technology all appears to be Upwell, an independent consortium that does business with all four.
There’s no ‘coming together’ evidenced by the fortresses, or ‘putting aside of grievances’. For that, you’d have wanted exactly what so many of us called upon EDENCOM and the AEGIS division to do, but they wouldn’t: Combined fleets, so that all four empires would see their territory defended by the best options in all areas. Caldari missile boats supported by Amarr weapon disruption, Minmatar target painting, and Federal uhm… strippers? Quafe? I dunno.
Then, much like the first one, I suspect the lion’s share of the burden will fall on Capsuleers.