Honestly, you people all seem to read from the same script it becomes hard to tell you apart.
There was a line I read in the Scriptures… how did it go?
Something about fixing the log in your own eye before pointing out the splinter in someone else’s. Might be something you’d consider contemplating.
No, I understand your point and it is an incorrect assumption, at least until CONCORD falls apart and you lose the Federation as an ally, should that ever happen. Clutching your pearls over those two hypotheticals is ridiculous and speaks to the insecurities caused by the traumas of the past century more than anything.
A military Reclaiming of the Minmatar is not feasible. Nearly everyone in the Empire with a functioning brain recognizes that. What does seem feasible at this point, however, is continued Minmatar aggression that may finally get the Republic branded as a rogue nation and open up such an opportunity. This is what should have happened after the Elder War, but somehow the good people of the Inner Circle decided to forgive that little transgression. Good on them, I suppose.
The greatest obstacle to peace is not the existence of the Reclaiming, it is Minmatar belligerence and unwillingness to see the facts on the ground as they exist. You speak in tortured, fearful assumptions and bitter, hateful promises of revenge. That is what is truly not helpful in all of this. Open your eyes, see where we both stand today, not as we did during the Rebellion, and perhaps we can move forward.
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Speaking as an Amarr, and as someone who lived in the Republic for a time, I have to contest some of these…
- Crime rates in the Republic have fallen in recent years.
- Republic’s economic sector has consistently been growing. I also don’t know that I’d rank its levels of poverty, disease rates, or ‘environmental disasters’ all that much more than any other nation, either.
- On emigration, this is, again, once true, but is outdated data. Immigration trends are from the Federation to the Republic in recent years.
- Amarr’s government is also a mess. We’ve gone through several emperors and the deaths of multiple generations of heirs in just two decades, afterall, not to count all of the corruption. And honestly, considering Heth and the Provists in the State, I think the Federation is the only one of the big four that can actually be considered to be relatively stable.
- Amarr has far higher and far more brutal police brutality.
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No, it truly is.
Looking at today is not enough if we look for a lasting peace.
The Minmatar people think in generations.
Tell me, please, when do you think the Rebellion happened?
It absolutely is a matter of right and wrong. Those systems are made of people, and those here can either choose to perpetuate the worst aspects by playing it safe, risking nothing, and supporting the system without question… or they can choose to add their voices to those calling for the reform of those systems, and working to advance that reform, regardless of the risk.
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But billions of offensive acts every day against the Minmatar people. You want peace? Free the rest of them. You don’t even have to kick them out. Just go from paying their upkeep to paying them for their upkeep, so they can turn around and pay taxes and worry about paying the bills like everyone else. Most of them will probably even want to stay, since the Empire’s all they’ve ever known.
I’d say it’s the trillions of living, breathing ‘facts on the ground’ we insist on seeing, that you wish we’d ignore.
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A lot of people have mentioned statistics that are the most recent that I’ve read as being ‘out of date’. Are there NEW statistics that I’ve missed? Could somebody point them out to me?
I’m happy to accept that the statistics we’ve all been discussing since the Jovians were young and fresh-faced are getting stale, but that simply increases the probability of error in them, it doesn’t automatically prove the opposite.
I especially would like information on the economic sector of the Republic as this might guide my investing strategy.
Republic Justice Department, Urban Management, and Secure Commerice Commission reports from YC114*. Which are, admittedly, also a few years out of date now, but they’re several years post Jamyl’s emancipation, which is when things were at their worst. There was notably a 25% drop in crime rates between YC113 and YC114. Most statistics have been on the rise since Shakor’s government came into power. Lucky him.
*((OOC: EVE Source, pgs 91, and 128))
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I wonder how that decrease in crime rates correlates to unemployed young Matari being conscripted in efforts to both maintain forces for the EWPA war and to attempt to build new reserves for another invasion.
One of the systemic issues that I referred to above is that the Matari state seems to require war to maintain its stability. If Amarr wasn’t the obvious target, they would either be rattling sabers at someone else or facing system collapse.
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Better war than slavery.
That said, the Minmatar people were quite able to maintain a peaceful society until you lot showed up. I am pretty sure we could do it again, given the chance.
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We tried to give you that chance. Breaking every last custom we have about the permanence of the reclaiming.
You could ask Doriam and Midular how that went, if they weren’t both dead as a result of having worked for peace.
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Basically, the absolute minimum that has to happen for peace talks to even be reasonable is that both the Republic and Empire would need to actively excise the extra-legal forces on both sides that have completely shattered the peace established after the Ammatar-Matari wars.
On the Amarr side, the open villains have been the Blood Raiders. Their actions, from weaponised Isorum and the assassination of Doriam to the most recent series of terrorist actions have lead directly to increased conflict between Amarr and Matari.
On the Matari side, it was Shakor and his allies that danced like a marionette to Blood Raider strings.
Jamyl’s miracle and the subsequent purge of Karsoth’s cronies meant that those directly implicated in the Amarr side of the breakdown were dealt with permanently. But in the last year their replacements have grown bold as brass once more.
On the Matari side, the criminals responsible for ending peace came into power that they still hold.
Until both are dealt with, I do not think moves towards a peaceful resolution of differences are remotely possible.
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The thing that is barring any credible push for long lasting, genuine, peace is the Amarr conquest of the Minmatar people. You seem to think the ‘war’ between us is new. It isn’t. The Amarr started it over 800 years ago with the conquest and the enslavement of our people.
The subsequent result of that, after the the Great Rebellion is that there is an entire nation that inherently distrusts your empire. Any push for peace by the Amarr is seen as diversionary tactic meant to position yourselves to correct your failure.
We don’t trust you.
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I’m entirely aware of this worldview. I also think that the narrative on the Matari side which portrays all Amarr/Matari conflicts as a single ongoing race war is an ideology designed to keep the Matari from ever working towards peace.
And well, at this point I don’t personally even want peace because even the pro-peace faction in the Matari isn’t actually pro-peace, but rather pro-breathing space to prepare for the next round. This means the Amarr population (including the trillions of Amarr of Matari descent) is safer from the Matari when we are at war. My opinion might change if an actual peace and reconciliation faction came to prominence on the Matari side.
I do want to see the Amarr warmongers brought to heel, though. Genocidal figures claiming to be on the Amarr side actively make Amarr populations less safe. They encourage retaliatory violence and increase the number of enemies out to kill us. They also seem to have a remarkable amount of connection to the worst heretical movements. They need to be dealt with first before we on the Amarr side can come to the table in good faith.
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And that is because of the Reclaiming, there will be a next round. Maybe next year. Maybe in the next thousand years. But there will be. That is why it is impossible to trust any Amarr notions for lasting peace.
Sorry, what? Not from what I have heard and seen.
I think, with people who have firsthand memory of the Rebellion still being alive, no, it is not an ideology designed to keep us from working toward peace. It is a determination to not forget just who the Amarr are, and have been for a thousand years.
You make it sound like this is a binary issue. Like the Matari can’t possibly want peace if we want to see our people freed. If you want the Amarr people to be safe from attacks by agents of the Minmatar people, the solution is very simple: Stop engaging in an active, widespread campaign of criminal acts against the Minmatar people. Every day, the Amarr continue to hold hostage trillions of Minmatar who have committed no crime. Every day, the Amarr commit billions of acts of cruelty and abuse against those Minmatar. Every day, Amarr Holders live off the hardship and suffering of Minmatar.
Those aren’t the ‘genocidal figures’ you decry. They aren’t heretics. They’re people you’d hold to be completely reason, decent human beings. In some cases, those are members of your own leadership.
You want peace, free our people. Until that happens, we have trillions of reasons to keep trying to do it ourselves.
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I’m quite sure there are plenty of boring old farts on the Amarr side who were in positions of power before the great rebellion, who are still in those positions, and to whom the rebellion is a personal affront, rather than a thing experienced more abstractly. The Bishop of Damius for example, I think they’ll still be around. (Damius of course being what the then Emperor (Damius III Khanid) called the Pator star system when it was conquered). And more than a few former Holders of what are now Republic worlds. Of course, having been deposed, they lack power to be anything much more than a loud noise, but can still make a nuisance of themselves on occasion, by being conspirators in schemes against those in power.
The numbers of Minmatar who directly participated are going to dwindle at a rate a lot higher than the rate at which the Amarr who participated are dwindling.
Maybe another 100 years, before talking about peace will go anywhere.
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If you don’t understand just how much of a concession basically everything Heideran and Doriam did to work with the Republic was, you are just being willfully ignorant of the Amarr position.
This is a very tired PR line. it is simplistic and reductive in the extreme and represents a complete failure to understand the peaceful reconciliation that Heideran’s theology attempted to work towards.
But then, it is very clear that the mainstream Matari position is far more interested in honing old grudges than it is interested in working towards stability and peace.
We get it, you are angry. So go, fight your war of revenge for what Damius III did to your ancestors and fight your war of liberation on behalf of Amarr of Matari descent who are alive today. And go ahead and keep scoffing at the idea that any amount of concessions on Amarr’s part would ever be enough. We are used to all this by now, and while I believe you are fundamentally wrong, your position is at least one that I can respect.
But trying to pretend that significant concessions weren’t made by three successive Amarr Emperors is just willful ignorance.
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