Which is why I said I still have hope.
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Individual capsuleer opinions do not matter, no. Individual capsuleer actions, however, do. If Amarr capsuleers feel that their only choise is between obedience and rebellion, and the latter of which is “only thinkable if the corruption of everyone in an individual pilot’s chain of authority is absolutely certain”, then the core of the issue is more transparent than you let on. It should not be a prerequisite that every link in the chain is corrupt beyond doubt - mere suspicion of one link should be enough to warrant scrutiny.
In the same breath you point the finger at the ■■■■■■■■ (edit: scapegoat flavor of the month, really) who “use their infiltrators to actively derail any efforts Amarr makes toward peace” but you couldn’t be more wrong. You want to bide your time while the room burns around you until you’re standing on the ashes, and only then do you have the courage to point the finger and say “fire”. Stop waiting for absolute certainty. Cull your cancer, leash your dogs, and do something besides repeat this tired rhetoric about the complexities you’ve conjured as an excuse to not act.
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Pretty sure the ‘infiltrators’ was about the Blood Raiders.
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As if it changed the point at all.
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The solution to Peace was given by Aldrith Shutaq
I believe once all Amarr stop using oxygen we will have peace, if we could just try this for a few days and see the results?
We(The Tribes) are in the process of freeing our enslaved people through what every means necessary(some peaceful). The Amarr are not to be trusted and should be killed on sight.
No, but having the error in there gave him room to respond to that, rather than your actual point.
Well, at least someone gives me credit.
Quite the contrary, you should be able to trust us to be Amarr. For us to pretend otherwise is deceitful.
And people think I am the murderous one here…
For the record, I don’t want your kind dead. I want you to be of us - as Amarr.
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Which is as good as dead.
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If you insist.
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The point of it, at the end of the day, once our enslaved kin are free (either liberated by us or let go by you), We would want to be left alone. The reason we are belligerent towards the Amarr is not just because of the millions of minmatar that are still enslaved, although that is a a huge part of it, but because your ideology threatens our very existence. I know that the Amarr, at individual levels can be kind, decent people. I’ve had this experaince first hand with Cardinal Graelyn, Kithrus Crasus. and Arsia Elkin.
Hell there was an idea back in Aldriths old post about this topic a few years ago that I could 100% could get behind, regarding a slow emmancipation process over a period of time, to both allow for the Republic to effectivly absorb incoming freed slaves and not crash the system, while at the same allowing the Amarr to transition to an economy that does not rely on slave labor. This might not be the perfect solution, but it would it be an incredible improvement on the road to peace.
However, so long as there is even just a 1% chance that a war of reclaiming will come to our borders a second time, we have to treat it as an absolute certainty that it will.
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Let me begin by saying it is not my place to speak on matters of peace between the Republic and the Empire. That is largely the Inner Circle’s job, even if they have been negligent for years now. That in mind, I will speak generally:
Dealing in near absolutes often counts the same as dealing in absolutes. The merits of peace don’t arise on the expectations of what the enemy will do wrong, but on the hopes of what they will do right. If the Amarr are capable of radical societal changes, of which I have recently been given faith that they are, then they should be allowed the opportunity to do so if peace is to be seriously proposed as an alternative to endless destruction.
This isn’t a one-way street, though. The Amarr cannot use past grievances as definitive answers of what the future will hold in regards to the Minmatar. The expectation of a second invasion Fleet, while plausible and perhaps even probable, cannot weigh on the consideration of a peaceable solution.
To put simply: Lashing out on the expectation of things that have not come to pass offers nothing toward progress.
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All I can say is we need to plan for the worst, hope for the best.
In regards to an invasion fleet, the Elder fleet was not a sanctioned Republic Military campaign. The Republic did not launch the fleet. Was it built used by funds originally intended for other purposes? Yes. Did I cheer along with the rest of the Reppublic when it happened? Again, yes. Will it happen again? Probably not. The Republic military forces are largely organized in a defense capacity, there is alot more scrutiny now regarding the appropriation of funds so the building of secret fleets would be significantly harder, and the Amarr Empire seems to be much more prepared to any future invasion. I highly doubt the same trick would work twice.
It would require nothing short of a civil war for anything similar to work again, and even then I would have my doubts.
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I really didn’t want to try to get into this on the IGS, where it will inevitably break down into finger-pointing, and everyone will always take the worst possible interpretation of it, but…
This is absolutely true, and absolutely untenable. For all of the reasons Gaven and Ange don’t get it. So, Nomistrav, in the hope that you’ll understand a bit more why the expectation of what the enemy will do wrong will always loom larger in our minds than any hope for what they might do right… I’ll get a little wordy, and explain it as best I can to them.
It’s not that violence is so primal that we can’t move past it. We did move past it. We moved past it well enough that our society’s peaceful nature contributed to the ease with which the Amarr conquered it. And it’s not that we’re angry. Anger… anger’s active. Anger is empowering, it’s righteous, even of only self-righteous. Nobody gets mad because they want to be wrong.
We’re not angry. We’re terrified. And we’re maimed. We are a nation of trauma victims being told ‘eh, get over it’. Well, we’re not going to ‘get over it’ quickly. And we’re not going to ‘get over it’ in a way that lets us trust our abusers. We’re especially not going to trust our abusers when they have yet to even issue the most pro forma acknowledgment that maybe they did something bad, and maybe we’re even a little justified in being horribly, horribly wounded and still bleeding because of it.
Gaven, you can say Heideran did these things, but no… no, as long as the Empire keeps slaves, any overtures toward peace are a lie. Any gestures or motions toward ‘you can trust us’ are nothing but illusions, distractions trying to get us to look away from what we all know, in our bones, your society wants to do to us again: Put us back in chains, force us to be not us… to erase who we are, who we’ve been.
And how close you came to pulling it off, once already.
My grandfather was a good man, and I loved him very much. His father was a child during the Rebellion, no more than ten or eleven when it kicked off in earnest. He told me the stories his father told him, and that he’d told my mother when she was a girl. When he died, I was just out of Pator Tech, living and working in the State with a mining corporation. I can remember getting the news, and my friends being supportive and understanding. I can also remember an Amarr pilot who styled herself some kind of clergy remarking how much of a shame it was that he’d be eternally damned by his father’s rebellion.
I can trace my family back five generations. I know the name of my great-great-grandfather, Jarun, who was a slave in what’s now Isendeldik. I know, from my grandfather’s stories, that Jarun, his grandfather, was a fairly typical human being, trying to get through his days without drawing the ire of those in power, hoping to raise a healthy, happy family… and I know he died young, killed by a Holder’s guards over some stupid little mistake that may or may not have even been his.
And I know nothing else. His son was only six when he died, and didn’t have a lot of stories to pass on to his own son. We know absolutely nothing of anyone in his family before that. Those people have been erased. Those Minmatar have been erased, and the only testament that they ever existed was summed up by an Amarr cleric as ‘a shame’ that their descendant would be damned.
That’s what you all want to do to us again. You want to make who we are go away. You want to make us disappear, just as surely as Mitara is heart and soul Amarr before Ni-Kunni, and probably couldn’t tell you much at all about her ancestors’ culture before the Amarr came… same as I can’t, really.
We’re crippled as a people, mauled and mutilated, and whenever you Amarr stretch out your hand and tell us you’re offering peace, we cannot see it as anything more than the angler’s lure, hiding the hook that will pull us back to the skillet. We can’t. Because you made us this way. Choose your aphorism: once bitten, twice shy. The burned hand teaches the best. Or find one you like better to convey the point, it remains the same.
It’s not anger at the root of all this. It’s trauma, passed on from generation to generation because traumatized and mutilated souls cannot teach their children to not be traumatized and mutilated. And we try to make a little progress each year, try to heal a little every time. Your people violated us, our bodies, our minds, even the cultural norms and expectations we pass along to our children. You maimed our traditions, our sense of continuity and community itself.
You talk about the Blood Raiders ending Heideran and Midular’s peace… but that was never peace. That was the beaten and abused child huddling in the corner of the closet, hoping their abuser was really serious about stopping now that there were other adults around… but never really trusting it. If there’d been any trust there, it wouldn’t have erupted in such a paroxysm when my Chief was killed. It wouldn’t have seen the swift and implacable bloodshed in Colelie because we can’t really trust anyone in the wake of all the damage we’ve sustained.
That’s not peace. That’s terror. And it’s a terror that we live with every day of our lives: who’s going to betray us next? Which smiling face is going to be hiding the knife behind their back? Because the Amarr taught us there is no trust. The Amarr taught us that anyone who claims to be doing something for you… wants to do something to you. ‘For your own good’ is a lie to exploit the trusting, so the powerful can jerk off to their pain.
That, not ‘anger’, not some twisted lust for violence, is what peace has to overcome: Generation upon generation of maimed, mutilated trauma victims who know that the monsters out there in the dark forest aren’t just real… they’re a lot more powerful than the four walls keeping us safe.
Why do you think, on an individual level, so many of us alternate between wariness and hostility, and reaching out to those of your people who are having a hard time? We can’t help it. We’re driven to comfort the afflicted because we are them. But the powerful—even only relatively—who say ‘we want what’s best for everyone’… ah, there’s that wriggling worm on the hook.
S’why so many of us prefer the Mitaras of New Eden to the Aldriths. Sure, she’s talking bloodshed and pain while he makes pleasant overtures… but at least she’s an honest monster. The majority of you, the ones who talk ‘peace’ but won’t even disavow the murderous, abusive hierarchy that perpetuates slavery and continues to seek the obliteration of everything we are? You might as well be Karsoth, the monster nobody sees until it’s too late.
And now, back to Nomi:
While I don’t disagree that peace is built on hope for what’s possible… it’ll probably be another three or four generations at least before we’ll heal enough as a people to even consider hope. It’s not accusations. It’s not blame. Gaven didn’t do any of this, after all. At least, not that I know of. But that’s the reality of the situation. We certainly didn’t maim ourselves.
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Why not? All of the pieces are in place. Shakor has even more power than he did the first time. Many of the tribes are allied, and those who aren’t are distracted. We’re in a political climate where the Republic government can disappear six suspects and barely catch a glance. Not to mention:
Thukker Tribe Deny Claims of “Militarized City Ship Project Hidden in Drone Regions”
Part of what you imagine to be “significantly harder” is already in progress.
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You are exceedingly generous with these Blood Raiders. And of course, the simplest answer is often the correct one. Which is why in this case, Newelle and his “lying war criminal leaders” is more correct than you.
(I took out the part about the Emperor because yeah, that’s probably true.)
Taking out Blood Raiders will certainly help with eliminating the influence that’s spreading throughout our respective governments. That’s why we’re doing it. Pretty sure I heard about an FOB in Republic space that just went down yesterday.
The problem is that there aren’t necessarily Blooders in the Republic government. It’s that there are large elements of the Republic government who are working with the Blooders, and eliminating the Blooders to a (wo)man would not stop those who have already joined sides with them.
That’s funny.
Also condescending.
Amarr capsuleers have the exact same choice that Matari capsuleers, and those of every other empire or alignment, do. And certainly you could make the case that we Matari also have only the choice between obedience and rebellion.
But if that’s the case, then what can you say of capsuleers like Elsebeth Rhiannon, who has repeatedly called out the RSS, RJD, and others? Or like me, with my clan outright ignoring direct orders? Are we somehow better than you? Ehh, probably not. Are we less scared than you? Also probably not. I’m ■■■■■■■ terrified.
So, much like Nomi said, stop making excuses and waiting for things to change. Get off your trendily wrinkled asses and do something about it. Fix your damn house so we can have a shot at peace.
You have the power to change things. As owners of that power, it’s also your responsibility to use it. It’s like buying a fancy ship and then never undocking in it. Like why?
This is acceptable. I retract my existential screaming.
People like you are why threads like this still have to exist.
Go the ■■■■ away. We don’t want you here.
Take Mitara Newelle with you.
I didn’t cry after reading this. Why would you even suggest such a thing?
Speak for yourself.
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Then, all due respect, you shouldn’t be here either.
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Some bold words from someone in the bed with a Mary priest.
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This is her thread.
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