And that’s why I wrote :
So yes if you remove bumping, which was NOT designed as a way to prevent people from leaving grid, then the only way to do so is to use a point (in HS, etc)
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Not really related to the issue at hand, but this is wrong. What CONCORD uses is irrelevant and has nothing to do with what would be more effective to make a gank fail, because what matters is what happens before CONCORD arrives.
Whether DPS / ECM (or other forms of e-war) / remote reps is the most effective way to deal with a gank is a matter of how many incoming DPS you may suppress or how many EHP/s you may add with one method or another, regardless of what CONCORD does when it arrives, and that depends entirely on the situation. There is no such thing as an AG technique that’s best in all situations.
As an example, ECM can be very effective if done right against high DPS low sensor strength ships like Catalysts, but not when used against high sensor strength ships with multiple ECCM scripted sensor boosters, much less if not even the right type of racial jammers are used (yes, you may see this happen relatively often).
This is somewhat correct, but misleading. Some “anti-gankers” just want content to be brought to them with little or no effort on their part and whore on easy silly kills to pad they KB or earn killmarks. You have to learn to simply ignore them if you want to do anything serious, but don’t assume DPS is useless for AG just because some do it wrong and/or use it in situations for which it’s not appropriate.
Everything is situational of course. I wasn’t trying to imply that logi is always better than ewar or DPS in every situation, but when you look at things like tactics, lock times, server ticks, human response times, etc. I’ve found that logi is generally better than ewar or DPS more often than not.
My comment in this thread was a gross oversimplification of the old post I referenced. I may need to go dig that up…
This may have changed since I last ran in gank/anti-gank circles, but that was invariably the experience I had.
This and I can’t stress this enough. Bumping being imbalanced has nothing to do with the gank or whatever other event happens. It’s broken because it’s risk free griefing.
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And that is the main reason of all the fierce resisting to any idea or initiative aimed on fixing this issue.
By bumping capital ships in high sec, they can tackle indefinitely a ship without risking any counter or consequences. The truly and ultimate wet dream of any griefer 
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I has absolutely nothing to do with armed or unarmed, in fact flying an unarmed ship solo is even more foolish.
After seeing this post, I think I can sum up^ the primary difference of the two sides of this whole debate with a single observation:
One side thinks that anything done to annoy other players or interfere with their gameplay that isn’t somehow punished by the server with in-game consequences is “griefing” and should be changed.
The other side realizes that EvE is a sandbox full of emergent gameplay, will use that gameplay to their own benefit, and that CCP’s standards for harassment are considerably higher than what counts as “griefing” in other MMOs.
Until CCP changes their stance on what qualifies as harassment (hint: bumping freighters for a non-extended period of time currently doesn’t qualify, but this is obviously subject to change) I think it’s pretty clear which side is going to win here.
^Sum up as in approximate. There are a wide variety of opinions here obviously, but most commenters seem to fall into, or pretty close to, one of these two camps.
CCP already had in their plans to come with a 3 minutes warp timer fix, so the freighters bumping is far from not being acknowledged as an issue, on the contrary, developers already tried to come with a fix. Why they had not implemented yet, is still an unknown information.
Bronson
There are different versions of the problem statement, but I don’t think you’ve actually captured the real issue.
Bumping as a combat tool is unreasonable because it is effective, but cannot be countered.
The stuff about “griefing” is a psychological assessment of people who want to keep bumping despite it being so unreasonable. Fun to write I guess, and sometimes fun to read. But I doubt anyone thinks it’s a valid reason to change bumping.
Can you provide a link to where a CCP employee said that? I’m not trying to be snarky, but I’ve seen this mentioned a few times with no verification and I’m genuinely curious to see if CCP is changing their tune from past years.
It cannot be countered without help. If EvE balance was based around mechanics a solo pilot can counter by themselves, EvE would be a radically different game.
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This feels like nitpicking.
For example you could claim that bumping can be countered by having another player on hand destroy the bumping ship …
… but that’s obviously not what I meant.
Every other means of combat has a module that counters it. A given target may not have an effective counter at the time they’re attacked, but they had the choice to fit one.
He has been asked this many times and cannot provide a link.
It’s really key. EVE is balanced around team activities. For example frigates are balanced against battleships because many frigates can kill a battleship. To balance 1v1 a single frigate would need to take out a battleship. Of course some people will say they can take out a battleship, but ALL THINGS equal that is not the case.
Some activities are accepted as solo, but these are predominantly new player activities.
Flying a 1b capital ship is not a solo activity.
Idk why the price of a freighter matters for the solo point. Or the inertia… or warp speed… Or anything for that matter. It can be done to any ship larger than a cruiser. Bumping isn’t just for freighters.
I can agree that EVE PVP combat is (or perhaps was) designed for multiple types of ships, though I think EVE might be more fun if it was “all T1”. Can’t blame CCP for providing new “bells and whistles” though.
But I doubt anyone wants to balance 1 vs 1 in the sense that a frigate and a battleship should have the same chance in a fight.
I’m not personally against the idea that a freighter full of expensive stuff should need escorts against suicide ganking.
But IMO bumping is a completely different discussion. It makes ships that are not effective for combat into an unstoppable means to delay a valuable ship as long as it takes to assemble a “strike team”.
And of course it’s not random. In the freighter pinned by a bumper, the bumper is already has access to suitable strike pilots. But is it reasonable that they get to finish their mission, eat lunch, and then get together to destroy the pinned ship? Ok - wildly exaggerated … but the lack of a time limit is a significant part of the problem).
And resistance is not so easy for escorts. A combat ship capable of disrupting suicide gankers has to be sacrificed for each bumping ship. This is far too easy for the bumpers.
I’ve seen plenty of reasonable suggestions:
- After a shortish time the bumper may be destroyed without CONCORD exacting revenge
- A timer after which the target is immune to further bumping
- Specialist bumper ship types (tiny ships bumping huge armored ships isn’t reasonable)
- I’m sure I missed other good ones
… personally I’d go for true EVE style: specialized bumper ships that become valid targets after a fixed time, so the attacker has to have multiple pilots locally, and incur some costs while pinning their target
Anyway the suggestions I’ve seen have tried to preserve the interesting part of bumping (the possibility of pinning a target for a little while) without the unreasonable aspects.
It’s hard to believe a compromise is impossible.
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Bumping a freighter is not even a team activity most of the time, but an 1 vs 1 interaction were one entity is a victim who have no counters to the other entity hostile actions.
That is the definition of unbalanced game mechanic who need to be fixed, and that is already beyond debate.
Because universally for all EXPERIENCED players the answer to these kinds of interaction is teamwork.
Since a freighter is a capital ship, there is no using the excuse new player.
This is why I keep telling you guys, if you want bumping changed focus on the new player solo miner which because solo is an accepted use case for new player miners there is no counter.
Teamwork isn’t counter play. Its just stopping the bumping stasis. Being able to counter attack in some way would be nice. When the only realistic solution to get out of a bump lock is to run away it’s just lame. It’s even better for the one bumping cause then they’ve wasted two peoples’ time. This is golden for a griefers mind.
Yes you could argue that bumping isn’t attacking so to speak but then, following that logic, neither are warp disruptors.
How about we remove bumping completely and allow warp disruptors with only a suspect flag in high sec. Can only warp disrupt for X minutes before the ship can warp off if in empire if it doesn’t aggress 
More risk please, dumb random idea I know but yes more risk pls.
Nothing is stopping you from a counter suicide gank.
So when two ships collide they what, push though each other like WoW?
Worst idea in recent memory.