I think the porpoise should be better equipped to help hulks and stuff tank cause even with it out in belt it cant stop some of the rats from chewing through hulks
makes me think he wants the world around him to change to his likings, but there’s at least one piece missing.
curious what he’s going to write.
What’s useless is claiming something is useless and then ignoring counterarguments and providing no valid justification for the claim.
I just did a little experiment in pyfa. I fit a venture with two Miner 1s, and a Porpoise with two Mining Foreman Burst Is and a full flight of 5 mining drone 1s. Then for each ship I added to the “All 0s” unskilled character the minimum skills to fly that ship and fit.
The porpoise, solo, gets 3.61 m3/sec yield (granted, does not take into account drone flight time). The venture, solo, get 2.97 m3/sec yield. The venture, boosted by the porpoise, gets 3.64 m3/sec. So two unboosted ventures would get 5.94 m3/sec, while the porpoise and one boosted venture would get 7.25 m3/sec. That’s 22% increase in yield. So maybe the “I need five ships to make it work” is an overbid. Granted, if you start two characters at the same time, train one specifically in Venture related skills, and train the other specifically in Porpoise related skills, the Venture pilot will have a lot higher solo yield by the time the Porpoise pilot can do anything at all. And there are other factors. But this is a start.
…for any ninja mining op in shattered wormholes, where you can find ice and ore anomalies.
Additional data from my pyfa musings:
That Venture, unboosted, gets 5.21 m3/sec yield with all skills at 5. Boosted by a minimally skilled Porpoise pilot, 6.13 m3/sec. If the Porpoise pilot is “all 5s”, 6.92 m3/sec boosted. The porpoise pilot, with all fives, gets 8.79 m3/sec. So the two together, fully skilled, get 15.71 m3/sec. That’s with T1 gear and no MLUs. It’ll be more with upgraded gear.
One thing I’d take away from this: the Porpoise pilot ought to be flying a full flight of the best mining drones he can handle.
Your maths are off my friend.
3 Hulks without any boosts (fit dependent of course) will mine approx 320k m3 per hour.
2 Hulks with a Porpoise (with the Mining Foreman link which is cheap) will mine about 347k m3 per hour plus the Porpoises drone amount which I guess is around 10-15k per hour depending on the rock range.
Plus it also increases the laser range from 17km to 37km which a third Hulk will not do.
All for less than 150m?
I hardly call that useless.
A well skilled Porpoise (and thats still ship skill at 4) will take the cycle time down from 107 seconds to 66 seconds.
By contrast on the same character, an Orca, which can cost 7 or 8 times the price, reduces the cycle time to 65 seconds and 38km range.
So now please tell me which ship is useless.
Exactly. The orca does have a much larger ore hold. So you can stay out in the belt longer. But for pure boosting power the difference is negligible.
A porpoise is also much faster, allowing you to warp back and forth for ore drop offs with minimal loss of efficiency.
Now personally I would rather pair 2 mackinaw with the porpoise. I haven’t run the numbers, but with boosts it should be pretty close to un-boosted hulk yield. While getting a little extra tank and a lot more cargo space. I’d prefer an orca with hulks because warping back and forth constantly is a PITA
Actually that’s a fair point. The Orca’s tank and punching power do far exceed that of the Porpoise, and yes the Ore hold is quite a bit bigger.
To be honest the Ore hold will still fill up within 40 minutes with a pair of Hulks so, even with a Porpoise, its easier just to use enormous containers and have a freighter pick them up.
In null especially, having an Orca at zero velocity and not aligned is risky.
That’s why you slap a webbifier on each of the hulks. And a Higgs anchor rig on the orca.
Between the rig and two t2 webs max velocity is under 10m/s which means you can stay aligned and at max velocity while still staying close to the rocks for a good long while.
If something shows up the orca will fleet warp instantly. And you can use one of the hulks to Web the other into warp, only leaving 1 ship in any real danger.
Or if you have an account to spare that that isn’t being used for mining. You can have that one orbiting in a sacrificial webbing frigate and use that to sling all of the other more expensive ships into warp.
I use a bantam. With dual webs it can get the orca into warp from a dead stop in the time it takes me to switch screens. And 1 Web is enough to get each of the mining ships into warp on the next cycle. So maybe 4-5 seconds max. To extract the whole fleet from a dead stop. Also gives me a little bit of extra remote rep power with faster cycle time just in case. (My mining alts can’t fly hulks yet. And the covetor is a little squishy and doesn’t have the mid slot to spare for its own webs.)
my maths are not off my friend and where exactly is your math(s)? istead of just coming here and telling us what a hulk will mine or how much you “think” a porpoise boost is or how much you “think” a porpoise drone mines why don’t you come back and display the actual math here in the forum so you can “prove” your point instead of just dropping arbitrary numbers that are wrong.
You have clearly never mined c320 or c540 in a wormhole.
You slap a higgs on all ships and have webbers on the orca, webbing the covetors and at least one web webbing the orca that’s how i operated, nothing squishy about them. 1x orca with links, 3x covetors, all moving at 8msec. armor rigs help too. works great.
how does that work for ore transfer though?
even with higgs and webs the covetors are going to be moving faster than the orca, if you have them all aligned, then the covetors would be regularly moving out of range of the fleet hangar (and out of range of any cans they might jettison)
if you have the covetors set to keep at range on the orca, then its webs aren’t doing anything useful and your sacrificing a considerable amount of tank for them.
not saying its a bad idea, just personally I’d think it would require more fiddling and maneuvering to keep everything in range of each other and every time you need to re-align things your leaving yourself vulnerable.
higgs, armor rigs, webs. manually making sure everyone is above, or within a second, of being able to warp. a second is enough time, when the overview is visible and the “warp to” menu is open for the fleet commander, waiting to be clicked. you can slow ships down to a crawl, where the differences barely matter. i had issues like you describe them, but i’ve ironed them out eventually. in a complete spiderweb setup, everyone slows down to speeds that just stop making you worry about it.
I might have to give that a try one day. Not sure I’d feel comfortable giving up that much of my tank for some covetors since I live in npc null without cap support and we get roaming gangs every hour or so. but once I get hulks out there it would be easier to spider Web them.
(Without cap support it can take a couple of minutes for backup to arrive and I’d rather have a brick tank just in case they do somehow manage to get the jump on me)
This hasn’t been tested in null. Afaik Mooses varied it for KarmaFleet, but i don’t know to what extent. A bubble will wreck your day, even if it just takes you one second to warp. For highsec though, it’s gold, as long as you also do the prep. that means setting up bookmarks that allow you to move through the belt in one line, while covering most of it.
yeah, BS rats can make a pretty serious dent in a covetor even with tank, I wouldn’t want to give that up. which is why I use the web alt.
I also have scouts +1 and +2 out and a catch bubble leading from the gate every time I mine, even with that there have been a couple close calls with an interceptor that likes to log out in the pocket. still i’ve always managed to get my fleet into warp before the tackle can land. but I like to plan for the worst, so just in case I keep my orca brick tanked to allow for at least some hope of rescue (and if they drop caps, I’ll just content myself in the knowledge that they had to drop caps on me :D)
we have strayed somewhat from the original porpoise of this thread though.
the porpoise is a ship with a somewhat niche role, but that doesn’t mean that its useless. its big brother might be better in a lot of sittuations, but it is also a lot more expensive, and there are places a porpoise can go that an orca can’t.
Like marauders and dreads, the dread might be the big brother but it is limited in where it can go and carries a higher price tag. the big difference (and I think this says more about the poor balancing of marauders) is that the price gap between a porpoise and an orca is much larger, and in their primary role (that of a mining booster) there is very little difference in efficiency, the orca just gives you a couple extra options, while sacrificing maneuverability and ability to access shattered wormholes.
I can think of several circumstances where I would bring a porpoise over an orca, but i’m hard pressed to think of many outside of HS where I would prefer a marauder over a dread. so while the balancing might not be perfect, its a hell of a lot better than most other “big brother ship” scenarios.
Your math is incomplete. The max foreman burst duration bonus on the porpoise with max skills, T2 burst, & the implant, is indeed 38.67%. However, this is much more than a 38.67% increase in yield. Cycle time reduction increases yield according to 1/(1-X), where x is the reduction percentage in cycle time. You can confirm this by conceptualizing that if you reduced your cycle time in half (50%) you would double your yield.
Therefore 1/(1-.3867) = 1.63. You’re actually increasing fleet members yield by 63%. So you don’t need five people mining with you. Really with how good the drones are now, even one other person mining with you is an efficient fleet. More than that is very efficient. Plus even just mining with an alt or friend with this you can have them use the higher yield / low cargo hold barges like the covetor/hulk and dump all the ore into the porpoise and make return flights to drop it off.
Sure the orca is even more efficient, but it costs 10X.
Have a mobile depot with you, so you can fit a drone damage amplifier if you want. The Porpoise can still provide shield logi for your Covetors and shoot them battleship rats to kingdom come.
At 1400m/s with a t2 mwd she also goes pretty fast.
A Porpoise can fit into the smallest wormholes. Great option for day trippers.
This post pretty much sums up what i was going say and what ive always belived the porpoise was designed for, a less expensive and smaller Orca that can fit into smaller wormholes to take advantage of the sites in WH space and also an entry level to the orca for smaller less well funded corporations.