Yes, we also proposed this.
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Fair enough.
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Common sense is anything but common.
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Don’t fckin touch our rolling hics/mechanics and go fix the gazillion real broken stuff this game has instead thx a lot for ruining our day this is the worst change in a while
Your reddit-tier posting serves only to reinforce my point in regards to the CSM being a popularity contest. He clearly didn’t get into the CSM because he cared about the players, or the health of the game at large. If that were the case, he would have glanced towards some reading material about how to roll wormholes and understood why his idea is bad and focuses on the wrong parts of this issue. Don’t try to act for even a second that EVE is somehow lacking in guides on how to get things done, and that the average excited-to-be-here EVE player wouldn’t have sat down and read those guides without hesitation.
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Brisc’s not touching anything. He’s one of the guys you have available to bring your feedback more directly to the people who’re touching things. And he’s trying to do that. Help him. Add the weight of numbers to suggestions you think are good ones, voice your opposition to bad ones, but remember that even if he’s offering a bad/sub-optimal suggestion here, he’s offering it to you because he wants to know if it’s good or bad. He wants to do what he can to help you.
So your carefully considered opinion is that, rather than directly talk to the people effected, he should spend an hour or two reading a guide. That way, he can tell the devs ‘I read in a guide’ rather than ‘I’ve been talking to the players this change will impact, and here’s how they feel’.
Yeah, ok.
Edit: as for my response being reddit-tier… I put in the amount of effort the post I was replying to deserved.
Agreed. Definitely try and keep posts constructive here. Trust me, I am super upset about this and I’m spending way more time on this today than I should while at work, so I really understand the frustration. But the more people who comment with constructive posts and elaborate in detail about their reasoning, the better this will turn out. Just flaming is likely to make CSM/CCP care less or just ignore us.
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If it takes you an hour or two to read a guide on how to roll a wormhole, it explains so much about your corp choice. Best of luck in preschool, please go back to reddit and let wormhole residents discuss solutions.
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If you read one guide, you’re not guaranteed to get accurate information. If he wants to do his due diligence, he needs to read multiple guides. He needs to find them first. Granted, finding them shouldn’t take long, but getting all of the numbers right and making sure he understands a facet of gameplay (and all the concerns and reasoning behind it) does take time. And again, he can either go back to CCP with ‘the guide says’ or ‘this is what your customers are saying’. Which do you think will have more weight?
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So your carefully considered opinion is that the guides are not written solely by customers, but are in fact written by people that have never played this game? Bold.
As somewhat of an elected official, I not only want him to do his due diligence, I would also like him and others to acknowledge what is actually going on here: the change has already been made, and only the sudden vicious backlash from WH residents is enough to make them think twice about releasing this change in the upcoming patch. There is a reason he is ignoring every actual issue with his idea in this thread, and that’s because he chose the simplest and most time-efficient bandage: to give CCP as little as possible and pretend it would be enough to shut wormhole residents up.
For an actual solution to this, and future issues regarding wormholes and wormhole mechanics, CCP would need people that are knowledgeable and experienced in those topics. We’re here now, summoned by a too-familiar rage towards another sudden change without thoughts of the consequence. As long as we’re here, elected player representatives should do their part and not ignore us.
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@Brisc_Rubal I think the conversation has summarized the issues but to reiterate the concerns about your short term fix.
- Porpoise is a bad choice because it feels arbitrary and the training is an unrelated cost. Applying the mass reduction the Porpoise has to the Noctis and cutting it as proposed here would be a far more appropriate choice of ship to address the concern in the short term. I don’t see negative impact to the Noctis sharing this mass reduction and in some ways it is a “buff” to wspace as well as serving as a temporary fix
- The mass reduction does not go far enough. There will still be a massive increase in risk to “verge of collapse” holes compared to a multi-bubble HIC. This is why the short term fix is not a slam dunk. No way around this one.
CCP is fixing a 1 year old problem with a literal half-assed solution as it doesn’t address half the issue. There is no obvious motivation to fix lurch HICs in October without a joint replacement for the role of the rolling HIC. If CCP had 1 year to fix lurch HICs, it seems reasonable they can take 1 additional month (or whatever time is necessary) to present a proper solution for the loss of rolling HICs. This is the jist of the problem and one you should be most concerned with as the player representative. I appreciate your desire for a short term fix but this problem is of CCPs making and they have the ability to do the right thing.
CCP should be aware in the strongest way possible that off the cuff changes like this are unwelcome and the reason we have these problems to begin with. Problems with EVE don’t stem from CCP being unable to make changes because we don’t like them. They stem from them making ill conceived changes, promising follow-up to fix their fixes, and then not following through.
Make the correct changes in combination and there is no issue.
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My carefully considered opinion is that guides can become out of date. Game mechanics change, and the people who write guides can drift off into other pursuits and decide not to bother updating a guide for a game (or part of a game) they no longer participate in. (Edit to add: and I say that as someone who’s written and revised guides, myself.)
And he hasn’t ignored the issues with his suggestion, he’s explained why he thinks his suggestion addresses those issues, if imperfectly. He’s also indicated this was not his first suggestion, nor even his second. If he was ignoring you, he wouldn’t have made the thread in which you’re claiming he’s ignoring you.
They’ve been broken for years, there is no reason to rush a fix out on them now that breaks something else - that’s ridiculous.
This isn’t a compromise because it means training a ton of mining ship skills that many of us do not have or want. It’s better than nothing, but the only sensible thing here is for no change to happen to HICs until a workaround to our use of them is sorted.
The amount of people abusing the 500mn HICs is probably significantly lower than the amount of people using them for rolling on a daily basis!
Brisc - 1st Thanks for trying.
The porpoise Idea is bad possible better than nothing. Yes in the grand scheme of things a couple of weeks training is not big but there are other considerations - that training needs to be on all chars (as you never know which one might be rolled out at a particular time.) Also treaining for HiCs is actually useful for pvp and other things training for porpoises is forcing pvp toons to train industrial skills the would not otherwise use.
However the contempt of Wormholers that the initial post showed, really got our back up but we all feel with that contempt we would probably end up with this bad fix forever
An I am sure you have realised by now this is a real problem and the issue is not so much about max mass as minimum mass. Getting the smallest possible mass out of a crit hole so as to reduce you chances of being rolled out of a home wormhole that may take you hours or even days to get back into (with even the chance you never get back in if you have no chars left there). Getting this smallest possible mass out with the largest possible mass back is critical to characters spending literally hours or days of gameplay, hence why we all so upset by this.
Lurch Hictors are just broken and need to be fixed but not if fixing them is done on the sly and affects many more players negatively. The fix has to be the right fix. I have seen 2 sensible solutions posted here and would support either:
1. Banning the use of Bubbles and 500mn MWD at the same time.
This ticks all the boxes as it stops 8k ultra agile Lurch HICS and 100MN Afterburners allow HICS to still be used for rolling (the mass addition is the same for AB and MWD). Its simple and should simply involve a change in bubble code - rather than changing their mass values you add an exemtion not allowing 500mn MWD module use while bubbles fitted)
- The scripted bubble effect to me looks like it would work but seems less elegant And would involve creation of a new item in the game and thus probably other complications.
I have lived in Wormholes for years and although rolling of frigate holes is good (in theory) I know it was never intended, it is cancerous to do anyway and I personally would be happy for this to no longer be possible.
As I said at the beginning, thanks for trying.
PS don’t know what happenned with the text editing thing.
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my carefully considered opinion is that guides can become out of date
With how little CCP cares about wormhole space, the risk here is fairly small.
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Honestly how much would changing the prop mod velocity penalty (that hic bubbles get) to a flat velocity penalty on hic bubbles hurt their gameplay…
So by reducing it to 1m mass it sets the chance of being rolled out to approximately double that of the rolling hic, 500k-700k mass would be more similar to a hic. If you’d like to see my calculation please see Maths of Rolling Holes - Google Sheets if you are interested feel free to take a copy and tweak the porpoise base mass.
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I’d agree with you on this, except that with how little CCP pays attention to the unintended consequences of changes aimed at other parts of the game… you never know. 
Just want to let you all know I’m gay
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