Proposal - Crime is not realistically punished

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
61

@Io_Koval

You cant make everyone happy Koval. But I would rather make the 30,000 Industry guys who are sustaining the economy happy, then a few 100 Gankers.

You can still Pirate, even with my proposal, you just have to do it in low sec (without real consequence) and lets be real, You have to go to lowsec to get materials now, Nullsec also, so there are people to gank in legitimate pirate areas.

That being said, it could logically be assumed that your friends, are people who enjoy terrorizing people Masochists if you will. And Failing to adapt, quit. Generally these types of people are few and far between when talking about Human psychology. The ones that adapted or got tired of it are still here.

~

I remember back in the day, you’d get ransomed, and if you paid they let you go like a proper pirate. Then some groups starting taking peoples money and killing you anyway, this made people start killing the priates enmass, which eventually led to what Ganking is now.

Greed is what drives humans worst encounters, and Greed has destroyed entire civilizations. As well as Video Games.

EvE has enough real world economy and methodologies, that it too is effected by such. And the player count is definitely evidence of that. Most people do not enjoy hurting others nor do they find it fun when there is no legitimate reason behind it (Ie they attacked you etc). This is just basic Human psychology.

When you put people in an unsafe area, most people will simply leave.

So sure, your friends might come back, if the game went back to the way it was, But they probably wouldn’t have a game to even play because most would leave, just like before.

Psychology, plays a massive part in keeping an economy stable.

62

Well our productive conversation lasted all of 2 seconds before going right back into personal attacks.

You know nothing about me, and nothing about the people you malign. You assume a great deal. For one, I’m not a ganker, and neither are the friends I mention. And two, roleplaying a criminal in a sandbox game says absolutely nothing about the psychology of people in real life. And three, who cares if someone is a Masochist in real life (that’s the „M“ in BDSM), I’m willing to bet I’d have a more pleasant forum interaction here with them about Eve Online than I am having now with you. They are people too.

63

Well thanks for clarifying your background!

I personally come from incursions. Pretty much the end game of HS bling PVE. People who have 100bil + in abyssals/gear/pods. I myself have a kronos that would cost me a pretty penny if It blew up. I have LITTERALLY witnessed other veterans of incursions get ganked. (Please reference my first post beyond the one you quoted)

My main point about personal responsibly vs gankers will always be unrefuted because noone can refute that fact. In the end, YOU are responsible for a smart anti gank fit and smart hauling of your cargo.

You likely know that most battleships are significantly alot harder to gank now. (CCP)
CCP has recently made it alot tougher to be a ganker (reference patch in my first post)

THAT SECURITY PATCH IS HISTORIC XD In recent time I have been in EVE I have never seen such a heavy-handed approach to address ganking. Have you?

I will close off with this…

Ganking is a very overblown issue. The people who get ganked generate so much advocacy it’s so disproportionate to how many people die in HS due to gankers. CCP has addressed it with this patch and it will likely be the last patch we will see for years that directly references criminals in HS.

Why are you proposing change for the sake of change?

1 Like
64

The Prophet sees with your words the obvious fabrications you are spewing.

You already admitted to “when” you were flying around. As you are no longer an active capsuleer. Please biomass and exit this electronic space.

If you are no longer active, your opinion is no longer valid.

The whole reason to murder other’s is for their “stuff”. The Prophet suggests you retire from active capsuleer life and take up something like gardening.

High security is not a lawful or civilized place. Merely a place with higher security. The Prophet sees that reading comprehension must have been hard for you in school.

Why punish? We are immortal. The pirates can “murder” all they like and no one dies. Perhaps the life of a capsuleer is not for you. I suggest one of farming.

Oh? And who is this mysterious pilot, The Prophet asks.

The Prophet giggles at this obvious lie.

And yet your feelings get hurt simply by people dying in space?

The Prophet wonders how such a hardened criminal be so hurt by strangers dying in space?

Something isn’t adding up no?

Then be that consequence. If you are such a skilled pilot as you claim, it should not be hard to remove a few pirates hm?

You claim to be a part of the one of the largest and strongest alliances. Curious why you cannot bring that might to bear.

Then fit up, fleet up, fly out and punish them. Or stop crying. Your choice.

This is not what happened. The Prophet remembers.

High security piracy is a direct result of low security not being profitable enough and war declarations being changed.

This casts more doubt on you being an experienced pilot.

1 Like
65

Did you miss the rest of my post?

But there are no tribunals, no jails that capsuleers presently occupy and there is no Lawyer career in EVE so where are those Laws that you say some are guilty of to be criminals by? Where is the New Eden Penal Code?

66

Uninstall

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67

While I like some aspects of the OP’s proposal, I’m still a firm believer that Concord should enact and enforce a 3 Strike Rule for -5 Security Status.

Basically the third time a character drops to -5 or lower, they are forever branded as a Criminal and no longer have access to High Security Space

Thus enforcing the old Eve meme = Actions Have Consequences…

68

I have not read through every post, so I may be repeating points already made, but I think there’s nuance to the idea of ‘what highsec is supposed to be’. There is what the developers actually intend, what the lore says the factions intend, and the propaganda the factions disseminate to make themselves seem better than what they are.

When we talk about things from a development standpoint, that is changing the rules of the game, it depends on the developer’s intentions and what they want to promote or discourage.

Things may be changing, but my belief is that Highsec was not envisioned as a safe space at all, but rather a space filled with more limited and controlled conflict. CONCORD destroys an aggressor’s ship as a means to limit the viable choices an attacker has for engaging in un-paid for highsec PvP. Wars exist to give players notice that they will need to be on their guard, give them a chance to find friends or allies to join in their defense, and to inflict a financial cost on the attacker that give the defenders a small leg up that they don’t have anywhere else. I don’t believe the rules of highsec were meant to save players from conflict, but instead to give them more of a fighting chance in conflict. I don’t think highsec was meant to be a space where you build up in safety until you’re ready to attempt to survive elsewhere, but a place to hone your art of survival where the wolves are on a leash. This is why I think ridiculously loaded freighters or other acts of carelessness are allowed to be punished (by gankers). Because these are bad things to do elsewhere and we don’t want to teach or reward people for bad habits as they learn how to play.

I played for many years as a highsec indy character. I’ve been at war, and it was totally manageable. I could fly where I wanted and do what I wanted, but I had to take at least a little care in what it was that I was doing so that I didn’t get burned. I have to take more care in lowsec, but the lessons from highsec still apply, or should, at least if we take the game as a contiguous design of progression from relatively limited conflict to unrestricted conflict instead of as a walled garden of highsec with external PvP zones.

3 Likes
69

You have learned how to survive in New Eden.

And the hardest lesson of all.

Sometimes you don’t make it out. And that’s ok.

1 Like
70

Agreed, people seem to forget EVE is a dystopia. There is no justice in New Eden. No right or wrong.

Crime can’t be realistically punished because we can be in a new clone any time we want.

All these suggestions about punishing ganking appear to froget the lore behind why things are so dark in New Eden.

71

I saw a properly fit anti Gank Golemn get KOD by a bunch of Catalysts 3 days ago, he wasn’t AFK and he did exactly what he was supposed to do they hit him as he was warping in a .6. So i’m a call BS, The guy did everything correctly and still got popped. Even his fit was spot on.

It may not happen as often, when you are smart and do what needs to be done, but it still happens.

And those same pilots? Yea, they were right back at it an hour later looking for another ship to gank. They lost a few hundred mil to concord, and the people they were ganking literally all day long lost Billions.

That is not an Equal nor fair consequence. At the very least your security status should drop based on the value of what you gank. Anything over 100 Mil should be an Instant -10 sec status, + the Gate Lockout, + Concord Podding you no matter where you are in highsec until your sec status gets back up.

If you want to gank it should be allowed. However, you should suffer serious consequences, just like those you dish out to the people you gank.

So your irrefutable, just got refuted.

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72

I think the RP of literally every single Empire and their Lore, and Story, would 100% disagree with you.

You can think Highsec is designed however you like. But I’m fairly certain in ALL Empire Spaces the penalty for Piracy is Death by law, Not “Blow up your ship and ignore you when your back with another one 5 minuets later”.

Just saying.

73

This only works however if the destruction or hit to the aggressor is equal to the loss of the Victim. Otherwise logically it literally serves no purpose, nor is it any type of relevant deterrent to such piracy.

Therefore it must be assumed, that such a consequence in order to be effective “MUST” at a minimum require the consequence to hinder the ability of an individual to repeated the criminal action for a "reasonable amount of time (what is reasonable can be argued but if you can be back ganking within 5 minuets to an hour, and the person you ganked may need weeks to recover, then obviously the system is completely and utterly ineffective at even discouraging it on even a remote level).

If you knew you could Rob a bank, and kill several people, and your only consequence was the amount of time it takes you to get to another bank…

You would not even remotely view that system as even remotely capable of preventing or discouraging anything.

74

@Yasminka_Duchovnavik EVE was designed as a place where anything goes. That’s how it all works. It’s either deal with it or don’t.
Good thing it will never be Humanity’s future though and that’s a relief. It’s fine as just a game not to be taken seriously.

1 Like
75

@Minin_alnigh_Lon

You are correct. And nothing being preposed prevents that.

My preposed system simply ensures that the Criminal, is sufficiently given an “Effective” means of discouragement from such criminal activity. But literally nothing stops them from committing said crime should they choose to, there are simply “Real” consequences which effect their gameplay, just like their criminal activity, effects the victim.

I think that is perfectly fair, especially since EvE is all about consequences for your actions. Unfortunately in the current system, the only people suffering a “Consequence”, are the Law Abiding Citizens.

People are highly intelligent. Especially Criminals. So your system must be designed with that nature in mind, if you wish it to be effective at even minimally discouraging it.

76

How do you know and what exactly was his fit? Do you have a kill link? Iam interested to see what a proper “Anti-Gank Fit” is.

77

I was… Scanning on the Gate.

I’ll leave it at that. As I said, Just because I am all for more stringent policies, Does not mean I wont currently abuse the system for profit, if it is abuseable which lets be real… It definitely is.

Is that hypocritical? Sure. But to be honest I think it doesn’t matter since I’m a lone voice of sanity in a world full of psychopaths. “When your in Roam and All that”.

78

Sorry but pure claims without any evidence are not a good base for a discussion. He could have made like a dozen mistakes and using a bad fit or not using the fit he had like he should have.

79

@Syzygium

Let me rephrase that since apparently, you didn’t understand what I was saying.

  1. I was Scanning his ship for the group that ganked him.

  2. I was watching him the entire time, and when you have been playing so long, once you know the fit, you also can see what’s going on with the ship modules as they are using them as they all have different visual notifiers.

  3. I was relaying this information over Discord to the Gank Fleet.

Clear enough for you?

80

That means you could link the killmail but do not want to? Your gankfleet will have it for sure.