Proposal for changing Singularity rules and the main combat system on Singularity

singularity

(CCP Habakuk) #1

Hey,

We have been working on a set of changes for the setup of the main combat system on Singularity and for the rules on Singularity and we would like to get some feedback from you.

Disclaimer: These changes will take some time to implement and all proposed rule changes will not take affect until we announce that they are really changing.

Overview - tl;dr:

  • Remove the rule which prohibits combat at the station.
  • Replace the station with CCP owed Upwell structures (Keepstar + Sotiyo), which provide tethering and other services.
  • Move the combat system from 6-CZ49 to a sov system and claim sovereignty with CCP

Reasons and goals for these changes:

  • Reduce the amount of rule violations significantly (by removing the station combat rule, as it is no longer needed with public tethering).
  • Make it easier to test in the system and keep your ships safe, without having to fear of being ganked at the station
  • Have a replacement for building super capitals using seeded markets in sov regions, which will disappear with the conversion of outposts to faction citadels.

Details
Replace the seeded station with seeded Upwell structures
The plan would be to anchor both a Sotiyo (for industry) and a Keepstar (for supercapital docking) instead of using the station in 6-CZ49 as central location of the combat system. We will need to implement 100-ISK market seeding for Upwell structures (which should be possible for CCP owned structures) and seed then the structures in the combat system accordingly. The structures themselves will be fitted with various service modules (especially market, cloning, supercap construction), and be opened up to the public (but block taking control). We will also fit a special QA shield extender to make the structures invincible.

Move from 6-CZ49 to a Sov system
This will allow super cap construction directly in the test system. For this we will claim Sov and add appropriate upgrades to the I-Hub (not decided yet, if we will include upgrades for anomalies). Naturally we will need to update /moveme accordingly.

Open questions, concerns, possible other changes:

  1. Which system shall we choose as new combat system? We have already a few internal suggestions, especially from our bug hunters, but we would also like to hear suggestions from you. Important factors are probably: Close to low-sec, several gates, nearby NPC stations.
  2. There are concerns that these changes would increase the problem of supercapital proliferation on Singularity too much. Any opinion on this?
  3. We are also thinking of dropping the rule against fighting at the gates in the combat system - as gate jumps are no longer as important with /moveme. Any opinions?
  4. Regarding warp bubbles we are contemplating to implement a special beacon, which prevents the anchoring of warp bubbles, which we could use around the main structures and the gates. We are not 100% sure yet, how much work this will be, but it seems possible.
  5. /copyships is currently hardcoded to the station in 6-CZ49 and we are aware that it is being abused to some extent. Because of this we are thinking about retiring it completely. Would this be a big problem? How would this negatively affect your testing? Can you give us any good use cases, which would be good to support, if we decide to rework it?
  6. Shall we add again a 2nd combat system for sub-capital combat? The current 2nd combat system PVH8-0 is not really used a lot.

Do you have any other suggestions on what should be changed?


Poll: Which system shall be the new Combat System on Singularity?
Singularity: New mirror and rule changes - June 2018
(Sentient Blade) #2

Coming soon to a Sisi citadel near you:

Sebo’d dreads or supers waiting to pop ships with weapons timers that can’t tether after warping to the citadel after a fight.


(Dyver Phycad) #3

IPAY-2 :smirk:

Isn’t this already a problem with /copyships?

Why though? Can’t players just move themselves to a different system? I mean, even in Syndicate you have several seeded systems that you can just jump to or /moveme to.

And obviously automatic magic fuel block generation in their fuel bays because I cannot imagine that CCP wants to put fuel blocks into those manually. Right? Right?

Can’t you just open up /moveme entirely to make it possible to jump to any accessible system in the cluster? Or at least make it possible to jump to 1 or 2 dedicated systems in every region? In other words, instead of /moveme with the 6 fixed locations, you now tell the chat /movme_deklein and get CCP-US and UJY-HE as systems to jump to.

Or scram the ships, any ship, on the citadel because a scram prevents you from docking in a citadel. Good point.


(Makshima Shogo) #4

Very nice Set of change’s, I would ask that you add FW style novice-large plex’s to the main system so that people that don’t want to engage with capitals can just use the gate’s, this also makes it easier to test builds with similar style ships instead of trying to have a 1v1 frig fight while running away from fighter’s.


(CCP Habakuk) #5

To some extent, but super-caps are already excluded from /copyships.

We would just add enough fuel to last several months - as there is no cap on how much fuel can be stored in the structure.

This is something, what I’ll be looking further at some point - but it is not 100% easy and the current system is working.

I am personally not as much concerned about ships arriving at the structure, as long as ships undocking from the structure are safe. As long as you are careful with your timers you should still be safe enough.
The original rules against fighting at the station was also mostly there to make sure that players are able to undock and warp away.

Similar ideas were already coming up in internal conversations and I will investigate them further, but there are unfortunately a few (technical and/or abuse) problems with it, so it will for sure not be ready for the initial set of changes (but maybe for a later iteration).


(Tipa Riot) #6

The fits I want to test can only be assembled on TQ, because of faction, deadspace modules. So without /copyships I’m not able to test my ships. This would be no issue if you lift the ban of faction/deadspace module seeding.


(Neukolln) #7

Yes the no copying of faction/deadspace is long overdue for removing. These aren’t the super special mods they were 10 years ago when this rule was made.


(Sentient Blade) #8

Problem is, some players are just dicks, and there will be at least some of them out there who make it their mission in life to troll people around the stations. It’s a very “EVE” thing to do, unnecesarally inconveniencing or disrupting another person at no consequence to yourself (because the ships are free).


(Neukolln) #9

1 . Which system shall we choose as new combat system? We have already a few internal suggestions, especially from our bug hunters, but we would also like to hear suggestions from you. Important factors are probably: Close to low-sec, several gates, nearby NPC stations.

Will it be an existing system or a system made for sisi? I would guess the former. As long as it’s not deep null I think it’s fine.

  1. There are concerns that these changes would increase the problem of supercapital proliferation on Singularity too much. Any opinion on this?

The same as with deadspace/faction mods this isn’t as important as it was 7 years ago when they were super rare. People want to test these ships. I would suggest making FW style gated beacons to restrist usage in the system.

  1. We are also thinking of dropping the rule against fighting at the gates in the combat system - as gate jumps are no longer as important with /moveme. Any opinions?

No problem.

  1. Regarding warp bubbles we are contemplating to implement a special beacon, which prevents the anchoring of warp bubbles, which we could use around the main structures and the gates. We are not 100% sure yet, how much work this will be, but it seems possible.

Great idea. Although wouldn’t go as far as banning interdiction bubbles from HICs

  1. /copyships is currently hardcoded to the station in 6-CZ49 and we are aware that it is being abused to some extent. Because of this we are thinking about retiring it completely. Would this be a big problem? How would this negatively affect your testing? Can you give us any good use cases, which would be good to support, if we decide to rework it?

This would be a huge negative QOL change. Would really actively discourage me going on there with friends to test stuff as would require refitting and rebuyig everything (which I often can’t do due to restrictions on what you can copy). Of all these changes I feel this is the one that is the most important that you DONT do.


(CCP Habakuk) #10

Which restrictions in particular?


(Celestial One) #11

Please seed these structures throughout null sec, at least 1 per region or constellation.


(Aimi Saito) #12

BWF-ZZ. 1 jump from lowsec, and only 3-4 to NPC null (Society).

The people who blob supercapitals will do it regardless. At least this way other people will have the chance to do it (since it won’t be completely annoying to haul with 1-2 toons.)

I don’t think there should be PVP on gates personally, as it’d just lead to silly games of fighting on a gate then jumping out into a non-combat system. It’d also be annoying for anyone who would be trying to get to nearby NPC null or nearby lowsec.

Unless you make it so that it doesn’t let you drop Sabre bubbles, I think it should still be in place. Even with the main station as a Citadel you would still have people who would be placing drag/stop bubbles to inconvenience people, or kill/annoy them.

I don’t think it’s a great idea. People will find ways to acquire mass amounts of injectors, etc. on the test server regardless of what you do, so this would just slow them down a little, while inconveniencing the general players. Since (currently) the only way to test deadspace or faction fits is to either buy it on TQ and wait to copy it over, or just entirely hope that it’s for sale in one of the trade hubs (which can be especially rough if it’s a popular mod, like a pithum a-type) or otherwise ask someone to give it to them (which would still require owning it on TQ.) Unless you implement a way people can ‘apply’ for deadspace/officer/faction mods, or just seed them normally, it’d just be another annoyance for people who are there to test out fits that they are interested in (or testing mechanics of certain special objects, like the neut bonus on officer neuts, and the double-use zeugma analyzer).

I don’t really see a point. The system is never populated enough to actually find decent fights unless you organize them beforehand.


Overall, these changes could go good or bad, but ultimately it’s not my decision. I hope you consider this post useful.


(Daleth Prem) #13

IFJ-EL would be my suggestion. 4 gates, close to low-sec, not sure about NPC Stations thou.

This will give the “non hardcore” SiSi players a chance to test drive a super and i dont think there is anything wrong with that.

As you already mentioned this is a non-issue. Almost everyone (at least those who took the time to read the rule and special commands page) knows /moveme exists. Remove the Rule so there is one less to enforce :wink:

Great idea for the CCP Structures. But if you lift the rule of fightning at gates, you should not place a beacon at gates that prohibits anchoring bubbles.

I think this will cripple the 99% more than the 1% of who you say “abuse” this. Most of the players on the testserver copy very limited amount of stuff over. It encourages them to test stuff they wouldn’t wanna use on TQ. I don’t feel this is broken and it should not be changed.

I have tried to go to the sub-cap System at least 10 times and there was never anyone in local. remove it.

About replacing the Station with a Keepstar and a Sotiyo.

Will there be a “no fighting 500 km around the Keppstar”-Rule?
Because that would just change the location of the problem, but not solve the problem itself.
Also i feel like its gonna be a huge clusterfuck with people trying to bump each other out of tether range.


(Aimi Saito) #14

Also (sorry for not putting this into my original post) –
Maybe unseeding citadels? I guess you could still let people build them, but the amount of lag that hundreds of citadels in one system produces is absolutely awful.
Even if you limited alliances/corporations to 1 citadel per (for testing reasons, because I believe there is still a lot people like to learn about citadels) or just making it so that you can’t anchor citadels in the system would be neat.
but if the “main station” or what-not is a Keepstar, I see no real reason why people would need to anchor their own keepstar (although it may be useful) or atleast not a reason to anchor more than 1 EC, 1 Citadel, and 1 Refinery. But even 2 of the 3 of those would be better off being put in another system just to reduce lag.


(CCP Habakuk) #15

In my opinion the public Keepstar with safe super-cap docking will already help quite a bit to reduce the number of structures in the system - and I really dislike to implement overall limits regarding anchoring of structures. I would personally like to have a larger lockout radius around combat beacons, but I will need to investigate further on how we might be able to achieve this - so it will probably not be part of the initial set of changes.


(Amak Boma) #16
  1. second combat system that would give us opportunity to use only subcapitals i would also suggest lowsec system with cynojammer and with no bubbles - perhaps some sort of lowsec system? good system would be for this as lowsec - amamake and asakai

  2. /cpyships - rework it allow to use once per week to be used.

  3. /moveme change - add HIVE wormholes so players can test their powers agaist drifters and check the upcoming changes

  4. removal of station and gate agression rules AGREE AND DISAGREE. make ecm beacon at gates and station so people cant target each other at docking undocking distances.

  5. replacing station in testing system is GOOD idea … DO NOT SEED capital component parts thought in them,make people simulate the real work on their production

  6. sov testing system - AGREE but as above dont seed capital components or we will be flooded with titans and supercarrirs

  7. market seeding - allow to seed the faction modules all time. the faction modules do not give any advantage except less CPU and PWG usage and capacitor,in few cases faction modules work better than tech2 ones,and faction modules are APHA CLONE friendly.

6a. completly erease officer and deadspace modules from market to prevent sniping and unfair advantages otherwise seed the deadspace/officer modules

  1. wormholes - moveme wormholes are usually empty after few days and it takes time to roll the hole to find the sites.perhaps wormhole list could be changed once per week?

  2. replace moveme with moveto where you put system name you could move to, i.e /moveto j100001 /moveto j005482 /moveto asakai and sush . moveme window would be obsolete just type /moveto [system name/jcode] to move.

  3. if /copyships will be remove,we will have to buy and fit our ships from scratch perhaps allow us to spawn the ships? could be used for maximum 10 ship of same type or 10 different ships.

  4. to make fighting easier and more friendly make the FW style for combat zones so few for all ships few only for below captal/supercapital and few up to battlecruiser and few even smaller so players would choose where they want to fight as currntly evryone drags a titan and doomsday your tiny cruiser,this change would help others and fend off beacon campers. acceleration gates would have ecm protection so none of fights would happen around them and bubbles could not be deployed near them.


(Simila Medvina) #17

Some problems would appear with a public Keepstar, like people bubbling the undock so you cant warp out.

Removing /copyships would be a bit of a problem for me because im using it alot to test some TQ PvP Ships.

I don’t think these changes are good for the Sisi test server because it completely changes the gameplay on Sisi, like Titans and Supercarrier everywhere…


(Aimi Saito) #18

are you implying the same thing doesn’t happen with the current station, or can’t happen? because I got news for ya.

are you also implying that this same thing doesn’t happen? all it would really change is the people who actually want to test supers and titans would actually have a chance to - rather than having to dedicate themselfs to the server for a week straight just to haul the parts. once again, the dedicated will remain how they are.


(Penance Toralen) #19

I would disagree. When there were changes to mining and the expansion of ORE modules. There is no easy way to get to 4C-B7X. My solution was to setup a shield interceptor, set auto-pilot. Then take the dog for a walk. I ended up leaving a Jump Clone there for some access. A trip I did several times to test, review and feedback the new mods.

I know there were plenty of pilots that did not bother to make the trip. Because I listed some of the ORE modules in JITA and they sold fast even at the very large price tag.


(Boris Agnon) #21

Faction, Deadspace and Officer modules are not widely available on singularity, the only way we could previously obtain those was by putting them in/on a ship and using /copyships

You could just give players a watered down version of tr that only allows them to teleport to systems.