Proposal for Rebalancing of the Suicide Gank

[T_Elliot]

@Lucas_Kell

So then why are so many new players ganked? Why are so many unprofitable ships ganked?

How many new players are ganked? Can you give me a number? You talk about a new bro gankpocalypses, but never give me a number. As I have repeatedly mentioned, the new bros that I see ganked are ganked because they are flying shuttles and corvettes with cargos worth hundreds of millions of isk, leading me to conclude that they are not really new bros, but alts of veterans that have gotten lazy. I have said this repeatedly, and you always ignore it.

@Lucas_Kell

And that’s griefing and should be removed from the game. If you’re “mining salt” then you’re trying to get the player behind the character upset so that you can be entertained by it, much like Erotica1 used to do with the bonus room. I don’t think that’s a good thing to keep in the game.

Lucas, how do you propose to eliminate smack talk from this game? Good lord, I don’t think that the idea of eliminating high sec combat annoys me as much as the idea of eliminating smack talk. You want to ban anyone who teases, taunts, or calls names? This is a game centered around interstellar warfare, so much so that some call it a “murder simulator”, but we mustn’t taunt someone? I am fine with adding profanity filters, and filtering out racist or sexist slurs, but you’re not even allowed to taunt people in your idealized version of EvE?

@Lucas_Kell

These are not counters, these are methods of avoidance. Effectively you’re just trying to be a less appealing target than the next guy, you’re not actually engaging in any counterplay. INB4 Gix starts going on one.

Lucas, if player A is trying to maneuver someone into a position where they can be attacked, and player B out maneuvers player A, player B has counters player A. This is not an insult, but is English your second language? You seem to have trouble with really basic concepts here. Or are you just trying to use semantic games to baffle me into believing that you have made a clever point. We both know that you haven’t, and it becomes tedious to have to constantly call them out. I gave you a very long list of ways avoid being ganked. Trying to play word games does not invalidate them.

@Lucas_Kell

If someone spend two weeks saving up for their first mining barge, then they immediately lose it, that’s pretty much a two week rollback they have to repeat.

Yes, and if someone spends a month saving up enough money to buy a golem, and then spends another month grinding out faction to deck it out with shiny faction gear, and then their golem gets ganked while doing a lvl 4 mission because he never had to learn to d-scan, that player is out two month worth of work, and they have to repeat.

Again you seem to feel like you are making a point, but I don’t get it. If I could choose to loose a fifty million isk mining barge, or a three billion isk golem, I know which would be easier to recover from. Lessons learned early are much more valuable than lessons learned late. It is much better for players to learn skills early in the game.

@Lucas_Kell

There’s a difference between getting killed after going through a gate to lowsec and getting killed flying from one career system to another. A lot of the time they won’t learn anything, they will barely know how to fly their ship and they’ll get blown up by some veteran that gains nothing from it. All they learn is that it’s a crappy game filled with griefers.

Good lord, how many times are new players with the frigate still fitted with the civilian stuff they got from their mission getting ganked by these evil veterans? It is already a banable offense to shoot new bros in the newbie zones. When is it finally ok to engage with new players? Protecting them from the combative nature of EvE only makes sure that they never learn to protect themselves.

@Lucas_Kell

Of course they do. Let’s face it, it doesn’t matter what points anyone raises with you, unless they agree with your preconceived viewpoint then you’ll consider their points ridiculous. CCP have directly stated that ganking newbros leads to player churn yet all of the gankers are in denial of that.

Well I would be happy to concede points raised, if they were good points. Your points all just sound like assumptions that run counter to my experienced game play, and run counter to the numbers that I have seen. You are the one that is demanding that the game be dramatically changed in ways that you favor, but I do not. I don’t think that I am unreasonable in requesting more than just your say so on this. You even want to remove smack talk from this game! Forgive me Lucas, but your idealized version of EvE looks very dull and barren with the PC police waiting behind every station to issue fines for cursing or smack talking. You do know that the world portrayed in Demolition Man is an authoritarian dystopia right? It is not one that is going to attract new players to this game.

@Lucas_Kell

Veterans going L4s in golems are already safe. You have to be pretty bad at the game to get caught and ganked

And how are vets in golems going to be safe from gankers when they never had to learn to use d-scan? I have already heard the dire warnings form PvE specialists that it is too intense to do lvl 4 missions in marauders because of the great ganking menace. Are you sure you’re not just trying to protect people doing missions in high sec who never learned to d-scan?

You seem to be determined to stifle the freedom that sand box games desperately need. I hope you to not have CCP’s ear. If CCP makes this sterile conflictless game you want were even taunting is considered griefing and will be stamped out, let alone actual combat, I see a bleak future for EvE.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Lucas_Kell

If you’re “mining salt” then you’re trying to get the player behind the character upset so that you can be entertained by it, much like Erotica1 used to do with the bonus room. I don’t think that’s a good thing to keep in the game.

Oh come off it. If I got smack talked I’d thoroughly enjoy giving smack talk back. There’ll be smack talk carnage in the ‘why was I ganked’ channel if I am ganked…and good witty fun all round. So what if people make fun…nobody can make fun of me better than I can !

[Io_Koval]

@Lucas_Kell

Io is the guy claiming Scipios stats declared all gankees to be veterans.

Dude that’s exactly the opposite of what I’m saying. The day 1 pilots are all newbies, the 12 month olds are newbies, the 10 year old pilots are newbies, their grandmother’s are newbies, so are their grandkids. Even moreso, the day 2 pilots are also all newbies, so are the newbies, and so are the actual veterans.

I managed to pry the post from the cold dead hands of the Megathread.

We have a problem Lucas. That analysis of his, even assuming all day 1 pilots are newbies, and assuming everyone under a year old is a newbie, still results in 70% of people that are gank victims being non-newbie. And 1 year is a long time playing a video game. That’s a lot of conservative assumptions that help us. Unfortunately, that’s not enough, and that’s a problem for us. We can’t keep claiming “a majority of gank victims are newbies” or “an overwhelming problem is newbie ganking” with these numbers.

It’s worse to have these bad numbers. We would rather there be no numbers at all. Worse still, people might be lulled into making conclusions that are different than us because of these numbers!

That’s why we should instead change tack. We could claim that the numbers are bunk, that the analysis is flawed and come up with 5 or so reasons why no one should listen to those numbers that don’t support our crusade.

But instead I think what we should do is simply ignore it. Never mention Scipio’s analysis showing newbie toons are 30% or less of gank victims. And pretend it doesn’t exist. So I’m going to do that starting now. From now on, I won’t ever talk about how that analysis shows newbie ganking is a minority problem and is a problem for our worldview. You should also join me in not ever acknowledging that study exists. You know, the one that shows newbie ganking is a minority problem. Mum’s the word. Let’s never speak of the study that shows newbie ganking is a minority problem again.

That way when we keep making our claims, we can just keep being honest and say everyone is just spewing an opinion, except us, being objective factual paragons.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Altara_Zemara

Lol. See the difference between me and you is that I can happily post my losses and cockups and laugh at them. Unlike those who take it all so seriously that the entire universe disappearing in a vacuum fluctuation is waaaaay less serious than some space pixels being ganked.

So to be clear, you start foaming at the mouth screaming “THE GAME WILL DIE!!!” when people talk about removing ganking to make the game more entertaining and less punishing for newbies, and somehow you think I’m the one taking it too seriously?

This game is entertainment, that’s all. It’s not a career. I get it though, you spend your leisure time pressing F1 on command so you can remove undefended structures for your alliance so you’re desperate to project on others.

@Wadiest_Yong

You forget that people like Scipio did not filter on “ganked” in the zkb database when downloading data, but rather pulled everything regardless of labels and then tried to come to a conclusion.

Again, I didn’t forget, it simply wasnt relevant to the conversation you injected yourself into.

@T_Elliot

How many new players are ganked? Can you give me a number?

Of course I can’t give you an exact number, but it’s enough for CCP to pay attention and there absolutely are loads of ganks that are in unprofitable ships that very well could be new players.

@T_Elliot

As I have repeatedly mentioned, the new bros that I see ganked are ganked because they are flying shuttles and corvettes with cargos worth hundreds of millions of isk

If that’s all you’re seeing then you’re not looking at the data, because of all frigate ganks the ones with high values are a small minority. most frigates ganked are low value.

@T_Elliot

Lucas, how do you propose to eliminate smack talk from this game?

No, but thanks for the strawman.

@T_Elliot

This is not an insult, but is English your second language?

Nope, which is why I know avoidance is not counterplay. By your logic anyone who doesn’t log into EVE is engaging in counterplay. Sure, if player A jumps on grid and tries to get player B and player B lists lazily to the left and escapes, that’s about the bare minimum to qualify for counterplay. But avoiding being selected as a target is not counterplay.

@T_Elliot

but I don’t get it.

That’s not a surprise, you don’t come across as particularly bright. No offense.

@T_Elliot

If I could choose to loose a fifty million isk mining barge, or a three billion isk golem, I know which would be easier to recover from.

But then you’re not a newbie. I could recover from a 3b ISK loss pretty much instantly because I’m a veteran player. A new player can take a significant amount of time building up 50 million because they don’t yet know the game and don’t have ships to fall back on. Again, if you have problems with this logic go speak to CCP as it’s what they’ve stated too.

@T_Elliot

When is it finally ok to engage with new players?

It’s always fine to “engage” with them but veterans farming them for easy kills is pointless and bad for the game. I get that you can’t actually kill other veterans but that doesn’t mean that farming newbies is a good thing.

@T_Elliot

run counter to the numbers that I have seen

But then as we’ve established, you can’t possibly have seen any numbers since you’re making ridiculous claims, like where you claim the majority of frigate ganks are high value, something that is categorically false.

@T_Elliot

I don’t think that I am unreasonable in requesting more than just your say so on this.

Sure, it’s not unreasonable but then it’s also not my problem. I’m stating my views and I don’t require you to sign off on them. If you disagree, then disagree, it won’t change my view though unless you can provide objective facts, which there’s little danger of.

@T_Elliot

Are you sure you’re not just trying to protect people doing missions in high sec who never learned to d-scan?

Yes, I’m sure.

@T_Elliot

You seem to be determined to stifle the freedom that sand box games desperately need.

Quite the opposite, I want new players to enjoy that fredom without be massacred by bored veterans who spend all day jerking off to their killboard.

@Io_Koval

But instead I think what we should do is simply ignore it. Never mention Scipio’s analysis showing newbie toons are 30% or less of gank victims.

Scipios analysis of a single alliance, yes.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Ramona_McCandless

He’s also stated he’s only here for entertainment in the responses he reads, so to be quite frank its an utter waste of time replying to him.

He has literally admitted to trolling these threads and people are feeding him.

Oh I know. Its funny for me tho. Also think about it. Just think. He’s a grown man and acts like this.

He deserves all the pity really

@Lucas_Kell

This game is entertainment, that’s all. It’s not a career.

Yet you can’t muster up the willpower to quit, even tho you find it boring. Huh.

@Lucas_Kell

Of course I can’t give you an exact number, but it’s enough for CCP to pay attention and there absolutely are loads of ganks that are in unprofitable ships that very well could be new players.

“Very well” ROFL. You know they ain’t bruv

@Lucas_Kell

It’s always fine to “engage” with them

So you agree once they step out of the newb zone, they are fair game.

Thankee

[Ramona_McCandless]

Ive also asked him directly not to reply to me and he continues.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Lucas_Kell

So to be clear, you start foaming at the mouth screaming “THE GAME WILL DIE!!!” when people talk about removing ganking to make the game more entertaining and less punishing for newbies, and somehow you think I’m the one taking it too seriously?

This game is entertainment, that’s all. It’s not a career

Hey….you’re the one so obsessed with it all that many have noticed how you are typing a response literally within seconds of anyone posting. For a game that you don’t take too seriously you are on here 24/7 waiting to instantly respond.

Either that or you’re an AI bot demonstrating at least the ‘artificial’ bit.

[Zaera_Keena]

@Scipio_Artelius

dynamically adjust the security status of capsuleers based on age and experience

Having the effect of WoW zones where you are forced into higher zones to level. But guess what, the high level toons still come to the low level zones to use the lowbies for target practice.

[Zaera_Keena]

@Lucas_Kell

This game is entertainment, that’s all

Casual Gamers , I dunno.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Altara_Zemara

For a game that you don’t take too seriously you are on here 24/7 waiting to instantly respond.

So you’re unaware of the existence of push notifications. Shocker.

@Ramona_McCandless

Ive also asked him directly not to reply to me and he continues.

That screenshot isn’t a response to you, it was to Altara and T Elliot. That said I’ll respond to you all the time you post anything that warrants a response, such as when you push misinformation.

[Io_Koval]

@Lucas_Kell

@Io_Koval

But instead I think what we should do is simply ignore it. Never mention Scipio’s analysis showing newbie toons are 30% or less of gank victims.

Scipios analysis of a single alliance, yes.

Excellent work! We are now equipped to dismiss these numbers anytime they are brought up in conversation, and anyone who would use them to influence their own thinking is clearly illogical for focusing on the data from a single alliance known for ganking griefing. What a bunch of pesky people.

@Altara_Zemara

For a game that you don’t take too seriously you are on here 24/7 waiting to instantly respond.

There’s so many of you pro-gankers heads out there that the few people like me have push notifications enabled, so that we are on call 24/7 to reply and make sure we can just make sure to keep getting the word out every other post.

We gotta alarm clock in to the forums so that we can evangelize the anti-ganking message every other post, even if it’s not the main topic, regardless if we’re treading old ground. That way we have equal visibility against larger numbers of forum no-lifers that have copious amounts of time to spend spreading pro-ganking propaganda.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Io_Koval

We gotta alarm clock in to the forums so that we can evangelize the anti-ganking message every other post, even if it’s not the main topic, regardless if we’re treading old ground.

Loving the sarcasm. It might land if there weren’t countless pro-ganking folks who spend every waking moment lobbing insults at anyone that says anything they disagree with. I comment on topics I’m interested in and I strive to be reasonable, rational and objective.

[Io_Koval]

Dude, ya need to chill. We are on the same team, against ganking and trying to get it completely nuked from the game. If you have a problem with that, you can get in line behind all the other gankers. Trying to cause a divide in the anti-ganking community is not productive.

I too only comment on the topics I am interested in and I go beyond striving and actually achieve being reasonable, rational, and objective.

[T_Elliot]

@Lucas_Kell

No, but thanks for the strawman.

@Lucas_Kell

And that’s griefing and should be removed from the game. If you’re “mining salt” then you’re trying to get the player behind the character upset so that you can be entertained by it, much like Erotica1 used to do with the bonus room. I don’t think that’s a good thing to keep in the game.

Taunting people and smack is griefing, and must be stamped out. But it is a strawman that I want to stamp out smacktalk and taunting people.

Slavery is Freedom.
War is Peace.
Removing playstyles of others is justice.
Limiting content is empowering.

[Dracvlad]

Wow, the Ganker Shrills are on to the last chance sarcastic ridicule of Lucas, after trying very ineffective name calling. He totally wiped the floor with the lot of you, showing the following as it is just so spot on:

@Lucas_Kell

Loving the sarcasm. It might land if there weren’t countless pro-ganking folks who spend every waking moment lobbing insults at anyone that says anything they disagree with. I comment on topics I’m interested in and I strive to be reasonable, rational and objective.

Lucas Kell nuked this subject, with cold hard logic, over and out.

And those haunting the thead might have seen Lucas and I typing at the same time, just saying…

[Lucas_Kell]

The strawman is your claim that I want smacktalk to be removed. I don’t, but there’s a significant difference between smacktalk and deliberately going out of your way to harass a target into reacting negatively so you can post it on your blog and laugh about it with your little mates.

This is a game. It’s for entertainment. Sure it’s competitive and people will smack talk within the confines of the game, but the moment you are trying to farm negative reactions from the actual players behind the screens or are dragging the smacktalk out of the game, that’s when it becomes griefing. The gankers that “mine salt” are griefing.

@Dracvlad

And those haunting the thead might have seen Lucas and I typing at the same time, just saying…

They’ll definitely still believe we’re alts

Could be worse, we could be one of Aikos alts, like Gix, Altara or Githany.

[Io_Koval]

Yeah, you tell 'em, Dracvlad!

[Altara_Zemara]

@Io_Koval

But instead I think what we should do is simply ignore it. Never mention Scipio’s analysis showing newbie toons are 30% or less of gank victims. And pretend it doesn’t exist. So I’m going to do that starting now. From now on, I won’t ever talk about how that analysis shows newbie ganking is a minority problem and is a problem for our worldview. You should also join me in not ever acknowledging that study exists. You know, the one that shows newbie ganking is a minority problem. Mum’s the word. Let’s never speak of the study that shows newbie ganking is a minority problem again.

The thing is, you really don’t even need Scipio’s report in order to get data. Having been in the Why Was I Ganked channel for several months now, I can clearly see with my own eyes that most of the gankees are older players. Most of the taunting is for high value losses…hundreds of millions or figures over a billion.

Oh, and Lucas might wish to notice that ganking of noobs is even part of one of the adverts for Eve !

EVE Online | Soldiers of Fortune, Gods of the Battlefield

[T_Elliot]

@Lucas_Kell

The strawman is your claim that I want smacktalk to be removed. I don’t, but there’s a significant difference between smacktalk and deliberately going out of your way to harass a target into reacting negatively so you can post it on your blog and laugh about it with your little mates.

Lucas, you quoted me when I was talking about not adding salt to smack talking, and you said that that was griefing, and needed to be eliminated. I directly quoted you.

It is so tedious to read your arguments, then watch you go back on what you just said and say that you never said it. There is no point in discussing things if you are always going to be this disingenuous.

(edited to add a “you” to be as specific as possible to eliminate any chance for innocent confusion)

[Io_Koval]

@Altara_Zemara

The thing is, you really don’t even need Scipio’s report in order to get data. Having been in the Why Was I Ganked channel for several months now, I can clearly see with my own eyes that most of the gankees are older players. Most of the taunting is for high value losses…hundreds of millions or figures over a billion.

No, you don’t understand, it is always clearly a newbie with a deep credit card that didn’t know what they were doing. Every. Single. One. Unquestionably! These are the kinds of players CCP needs to keep the game afloat because all those ganked alpha alts aren’t paying for .

Also you visually misinterpreted the advertisement. Those are clearly NPC ships being shot by the player and you may want to get your eyes checked since clearly you don’t read anything we write with our cold. Hard. Facts.

Boom, dunked! Next.