[PROPOSAL] Lapsed Omega clones & 5M SP limit

The recent changes to Alpha clones had some possibly unforeseen consequences for a narrow subset of the population - namely those of us with lapsed Omega accounts and less than 5M SP of Alpha skills trained. The issue is that any trained Omega skills count toward the new cap, effectively causing lapsed Omega customers who’ve subscribed or PLEXed in the past to be penalized relative to a new Alpha account which has not supported the game.

For example, a lapsed Omega with 1M of Alpha skills and 4M of Omega skills (which are now inactive) has an effective skill cap of 1M before hitting the pay wall, whereas a vanilla Alpha account has the standard 5M. Such paid and lapsed customers get less to work with than a free account, and may have had no way of knowing in advance this would happen.

This was mostly a question of timing. Before the changes, training up some Omega skills first and then returning to complete the Alpha skills could be a viable strategy based on attractive seasonal subscription offers, but after the changes few if any players would knowingly make this choice.

In my original edit I proposed the issue of a one-time refund of all spent Omega SP (only) for characters with fewer than 5M Alpha SP spent. However, upon further thought, this still does not resolve the issue since refunded SP still counts against the cap, and there is likely no existing safe method to allow Alpha characters to apply Omega skills without opening up another can of worms. I think the only two possibilities to address this issue would be:

1) Omit Omega skills from counting against the 5M Alpha SP cap, and adjust extractor rules for Alphas appropriately, or

2) Issue restricted (non-transferable, non-sellable) skill extractors to the affected characters allowing the complete extraction of Omega skills on affected characters, even below 5M. These could then be reapplied to the character later, avoiding the issue and encouraging a re-sub if used (must be Omega to apply the SP back to Omega skills).

Counterargument 1: Database work (building the query and applying the changes) may be dev time intensive and it could be better used elsewhere. There may also be a larger than expected population of such players.

Response 1: While I agree that running database updates is undesirable, in comparison to the other alternatives it is cleaner, has less collateral impact, requires no other changes, and makes players like me a lot happier. For example, exempting Omega skills from the cap impacts extractor use by Alphas and has no simple fix, and issuing extractors has abuse/profit potential and still requires some amount of database work. If desired, the total SP of characters could also be taken into account to reduce the affected player count, with players over 10M (or 15, or 20) excluded. After this one time solution, the issue is resolved permanently without any further changes.

Counterargument 2: This affects a very small amount of people / is relatively insignificant SP and PLEX wise.

Response 2: I agree, but at least for me this is about the principle of the thing. I am fully committed to supporting the future of the game and have had 6 accounts PLEXed or subscribed at one time or another, but this left a bad taste in my mouth and is relatively straightforward to address.

Thanks for reading. I’d love to hear your feedback.

Edit: grammar, clarification x3

I’m on board.

I previously pointed out the other side of this, the small group of Alphas who have given CCP money, and CCP has now disregarded.

Like you, I think it’s about the principle of the thing, so it should be fixed even if it only effects a small group. I think in general CCP missed some things on this update as it’s great for new non-paying characters/players but found a way to slightly screw-over a small group of paying customers.

Of your suggestions, I think just not counting Omega SP is the best and simplest option.

Do you feel that you’re not getting your full $0 a month out of the game?

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Alpha state is free - how can you possibly be entitled to a refund when you aren’t paying anything? CCP provided the service you paid for in the past and the fact that you choose to use the free option now doesn’t negate the value you received as a subscriber - those skills are still available to you if you renew your subscription.

CCP will iterate on the Alpha design and, like other changes to the game - you win a few and lose a few - adapt or die.

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@Anjyl_Took & Emily Shihari … if you are alpha you dont pay … could be you have paid befor or not ot what ever … take what you get for free but dont ask for the free titan in your hanger … i think alphas get too much anyways … battleships should not be free, T2 stuff should not be free … any other then ships from the 4 races should not be free … no large leapons for free … and so on …

but hey … there is not 1 guy out there who cares about what i think so why should anyone care about what you think … i am not sure what you guys really want but this “we are alphas and we want this an that” getting a bit too much for me … i remeber when fall out of subscription means no more eve … now you can do stuff … if thats good or not doesnt matter to much … it is what it is … take it or leave it …

we the omegas demand “pay or take what you get” you can be happy about the alphathing but dont ask for free beer as an extra … you dont get any …
why the hell you should get more then an omega

can you explain? no? then *********************** ok?

o7
JuuR

Okay, I think I understand what you were trying to say, although capitalization, punctuation other than ellipses, and using real words (unlike “leapons” seriously the “L” and the “W” aren’t even close to each-other, what kind of typo is that?) would help people understand.

First, I’m not an Alpha, I have multiple subscriptions. I’ve said that more than once, but maybe you read as good as you write.

Second, so you appear to think that paying before, should have no affect on what you can do now. So you can pay a subscription, and the next day CCP can not honour it, because you paid before? Obviously this would be stupid (but I still don’t know if it is what you think or not). So, let’s take “pay”/“paying”/“paid” to mean having paid in the last 30 days. Now, I know you, and some others are confused about the word “pay”, it means to give CCP real world money. Of course you could sub for 12 “months” and then you would say that the player didn’t pay in the last 30 days, but that just means you don’t understand GAAP, a subscription pays each “month” regardless of the length of the subscription.

Therefore, there is no way to know or classify and Alpha or Omega as “paying” just by their clone state. This is because CCP doesn’t just sell subscriptions, they sell other things too, which Alphas can buy without becoming an Omega. Also Omegas can achieve their status in-game without paying anything.

I know there are many people who will say “well someone had to pay for it” that is partially true, but also meaningless. Yes, someone did have to pay for in-game PLEXed Omegas to play, but that is the same “someone” who pays for free2play Alphas to play. That someone would be subscribers (all subscribers are Omega, but all Omegas are not subscribers) and/or PLEX buyers (which could be Omegas or Alphas).

Of course some people will say that PLEX is “real money”, but if that were true, we’d be paying taxes on it, in-game scamming could be punishable by local laws, shooting and looting a ship holding PLEX would be real world theft, and trading it would be RMT. (I know, “but people willingly risked it buy playing the game,” okay, then it’s gambling and has to deal with those laws.)

Sounds great, so CCP can change or take away anything from in-game PLEXed Omegas, and you wouldn’t complain or anything… sure.

This whole Alpha hate thing is like there is a hotel that’s been being used by high-price call-girls, and now some cheap prostitutes have come in off the street and have started using it. And the call-girls are complaining about the “whores.” In both cases the hotel is being paid by the “John,” not by the whore, and both groups of girls are whores.

In EvE there are two kinds of accounts, those who give CCP real world money, and those who whore out their time and ISK to those who give CCP real world money.

@Anjyl_Took so you understand the world yea?
i dont hate alphas i just dont see why aphas should get and get and get … aplhas allready got something … they can enjoy a game other paid for years …

so you “pay” somehow with plex or sub or isk and then plex … anyways you accound is paid for 30 days … and what then? next month you dont pay and you really think you should get a price for the last 30 days you paid?? really? why?
you go to a bar and get something because you paid your beer last time?
you should get something because you paid your bills last time?
thats kind or a very strange view on this world but yea i know atm some are very special and think because they were born they should get a price for that
learn that getting born and dying is something you dont get anything for it … its just happening … nothing more … noone is special and thatfor noone get a price
you paid last time … good nice … well-behaved … now you dont get a treat … you had to do that or just take what you get for free …
you paid foryour last car … well-behaved … you maybe get some % on your next when you PAY for it …
do you understand that?
i guess not … you want to be right whatever wired world you need to build in your mind

have a good life maybe CCP will give alphas more in future or not or whatever

o7
JuuR

No. Repeating this lie doesn’t make it true. You cannot pay with PLEX or ISK, because they are not real money. They are fictional, they do not exist, they do not have any value in the real world of accounting, they cannot pay CCP’s employees, they cannot keep CCP’s severs running.

The only way a player can pay CCP for anything is to subscribe, buy PLEX from CCP with real world money, or buy other services (MCT, transfer, etc.) from CCP with real world money. If in-game PLEX could “pay” CCP, then PLEX being destroyed in-game would mean CCP would lose money. But it truth it’s the reverse, because destroyed PLEX means CCP gets to keep the money they got, and never has to do anything in return. CCP makes money when PLEX is bought, after it becomes an in-game item, it is fictional.

CCP gives away free game access, to everyone. They also give away upgraded free game access to people who use the buddy invite system or who collect and use 500 fictional things called PLEX. Every player using one of these methods is playing for free, it doesn’t matter which of the three methods they are using.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. In the future could you please try an English sentence?

Yes, you should get something. You should get exactly the thing you paid for. In this case that thing would be SKINs, re-sculpts, or other things paid for with real world money that are non-transferable and were sold as being valid for the life of character.

The Dec expansion didn’t actually delete the characters that players already paid money into, but it made them unplayable or severely handicapped without the player having to then pay more money into them. This doesn’t hurt anyone who hadn’t paid, because for them it’s just a matter of time to re-train a new character, but it’s a huge insult to those who are being “punished” for actually supporting CCP. It’s like they are saying “Thanks for actually giving us money, but we’ve changed things, so if you want to be equal to what we are now giving out for free, you either have to throw away what you already paid for, or pay us more.”

To make this a comparison that would actually fit, it’s more like this: It’s free to sit at the bar. Anyone can sit at the bar and doesn’t have to buy anything, but they can. So you are sitting at the bar and you order a drink, and are sipping on your beer. Then the bartender tells you that you have to go sit in the corner to drink your beer because new people who aren’t ordering anything need to sit at the bar. You tell the bartender “but I’m still drinking my beer.” He says, that you can either go to the corner, throw away your beer and stay at the bar, or pay extra to be able to keep the beer you already paid for and sit at the bar (which is free and open to everyone).

And then if you say that it isn’t exactly fair or nice to treat a paying customer that way, everyone in the bar starts yelling at you and calling you names because you want “free stuff”. Because apparently the thing you already paid for, but are still using is “more free stuff”.

No, I couldn’t understand most of what you said, because it kind of uses English words, but it isn’t even close to being understandable. Maybe in the future you could have a friend help you when you need people to understand what you want to say in English.

thank you for showing me i am an total idiot … thanks very much … i understand i am the dump idiot … i will not try to explain again … it makes no sens …

o/
JuuR

In my huble opinion they should just let the ex-omegas relocate their skillpoints. It’s effectivly another strain of clones. Let them gather every skill point in a bunch and let them choose to distribuite them to the “alpha skill lines”.
Everything that exceedes the 20.4mil count wound’t be used and hold for future plexing or sub

Should be fair

And op, if you want to answer to anyone it’s ok to argument your Thesis, but since in this forum there aren’t all English mother-tounged, just don’t put up the “i can’t understand anything becouse you write as a goat” stuff. It’s kinda douchy

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I wouldn’t oppose this, although it isn’t exactly the same. The ex-Omegas trained the skills under the promise “you can have this as long as you pay or PLEX, but if you stop you will not have it any-more”. So Clone States and the Dec update are giving the ex-Omegas more than what was promised. The first year Alphas trained the skills under the promise “this is what you get, this is all you will ever get.” The Dec update didn’t really add to this, but gave something only to new Alphas, but not old Alphas, that was choice. Had the idea of choice ever being an Alpha option ever existed a reasonable old-Alpha would have trained the SP they wanted, and then stopped. Then the Dec update would have opened up more choices for them. But as it wasn’t Old Alphas trained “the Alpha skills” because that was all they were offered.

I’m not the OP, I was the OP on the thread this is a dupe of, but not this one. This OP was a bit of an ass with things like “we demand”.

This is an English language forum, there are sub-forums for languages other than English. And yes, if you want to argue in English, then being able to deliver an understandable sentence in English is a requirement. And especially so when you start by attacking people and saying that they don’t understand things.

If you’re going to call someone an idiot, make sure you spell “idiot” correctly.

Yes it is, I’m glad you got that. :slight_smile: But it doesn’t make it any less true. He literally asked if I understood, and I literally answered that I did not and could not, and gave the reason why.

I tought you were the op since the all in defence

Anyway it’s like you said. You subscripted as Omega, since you are Omega no more, no more skills. The alpha stage is more of a tutorial stage where you can actually farm if you have the time to become an omega-plexed. That is just an alpha with benefits if we wanna oversimplify it.

Since italian isn’t a lenguage with much importance in eve, since there isn’t even a translation for it in game, i’ll stick to the INTERNATIONAL forum, thanks. You know. We would be speaking french if it was the 1st lenguage in the world. We are not speaking English here becouse we chose to, that’ s just a consequence

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Nope, but like I said it’s basically a more rude dupe of my thread pre-update.

I could not disagree more with this idea. Also CCP has repeatedly said that Alpha is not an unlimited trail, but a valid game-play option. If it were an unlimited trail as you think it is, I would agree with you, but it is not, and it has clearly not been sold as such. CCP’s goal is not to make everyone Omega, it is to make money, and they certainly plan to make money from Alphas who never become Omegas.

The main problem is about trust, CCP wants to get money from Alphas, and tells them that being Alpha is a valid game play option, and that they can pay for little things and have an enjoyable game play experience. They don’t have to be Omega to get what they pay for, but they can upgrade for more. Then they release the Dec update which basically tells the old Alphas “screw you, you’re just an unlimited trail anyway.”

Great, you know you could also use the INTERNATIONAL Russian language sub-forum, but you are expected to use Russian there. International =/= multi-lingual. This is an English language international forum. I don’t make the rules, I’m just saying what is.

Alpha are a viable option, of course, people wount’ play in alpha if this wasn’t true. But it IS a trial, you play a chunk of the game with alphas and this gets you to want more. It’s inevitable

The international forum is English becouse English is International. Deal with it

And i’m not saying that people would speak french here. I’m saying to not being a douche to someone that can’t write properly.

How exactly would they make alphas spend money since Omega is just better? Nobody would spend money on the crippled horse. Somebody would force-upgrade to Omega, but many would just leave the game becouse they play it casually.

No, that’s like saying that in a restaurant that has an all-you-can-eat buffet and a menu you can order from à la carte that a salad is just a trial of the buffet. No, some people just want to eat salad. And some people just want to play as Alphas, and it has nothing to do with money. CCP is happy to just give people salad/Alpha without worrying about them needing to eat from the whole buffet/Omega, but they will sell them dressing/SKINs or expanded salads/DAI.

I thought that was what I was saying. Okay, dealt with. :slight_smile:

I literally couldn’t understand what he wrote. Could you understand everything he wrote? The douche part wasn’t about his lack of writing ability but because of his assholeish arrogance that the OP and I were wrong and didn’t understand anything, If I was rubbing salt in his eyes, it was only because he brought the salt.

Because not everyone wants or needs everything, I think a lot of people could build a toon they are happy with for ~10mil SP, then they spend some cash on SKINs, CCP makes money.

Really? First, it isn’t a “crippled horse”, second people do it all the time. What you are saying here, is "why would anyone ever buy a VW when BMWs exist. They do it all the time, some because they can’t afford or don’t want to spend the money on the BMW, others because the VW is all they need or want.

Alpha is a crippled omega. It’s Free? Yes. But it’s still a crippled omega. It’s fair tho, since it’s free.

If someone has money to spend on a skin. They have the money to become Omega.

Alpha is still a trial. Not a direct one. But, taking your methapor as the restaurant. “You can’t order anything that is on this menù if you aren’t a patreon”. You can stick to the not-patreon menù, but everytime you per in that restaurant you’ll look at the expanded menù inevitably

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No, it isn’t. There is little difference between an Alpha and an Omega when it comes to the things an Alpha can do. There are things Omegas can do that Alphas can’t, but that doesn’t “cripple” the Alphas who can’t do those things.

Obviously you feel that you need to be Omega to play the way you want to. But that is true for you, not for everyone. For some people they can get everything they want as an Alpha.

CCP used to be in the business of selling subscriptions. In 2009 they changed the business model to selling subscriptions and PLEX so people who pay could be enticed to spend money to feed those who wanted to play for free. Then they expanded their model to selling subscriptions, PLEX, and AUR for (mostly) cosmetic things. Recently they have opened up non-trial play without a subscription or PLEX and they also sell daily training packages called DAI.

There are many different ways to “pay” CCP, or many different things you can pay for. If you think the only thing CCP is selling is subscriptions, you just aren’t paying attention, or you are living in the past.

So every SKIN sold in the NES is less than or equal in cost than a subscription or 500 PLEX? This is clearly not true, as there are only 4 single SKINs over 500 PLEX. Even if it were true, still some people want to buy a subscription, and some people want to buy a cool look for their ship. People aren’t somehow broken or wrong just because they make different choices than you on how they like to spend their money for their entertainment.

No, there are not two menus, you missed the whole metaphor, and how EvE works.

There is no “patron menu,” what can Omegas buy from CCP that Alphas can’t buy? Nothing!

There is one menu, which includes small things (SKINs, DAI, PLEX for ISK, etc.) and also includes the all-you-can-eat buffet. The only catch is, none of the small things are offered on the buffet. Of course anyone can be tempted by the buffet, but not everyone wants a buffet, either because they think it costs to much or just because they don’t want that much.

I answered your methaphor with another.

Really. Alphas can buy anything now? What about every t2-3 ship? Carriers and supers…titans… Industrial skills, exploration skills. Even the salvaging skill is crippled

And yes. Since an Alpha is a Omega with less skills. It’s a Crippled Omega

But since is free it’s ok. Mind this

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No one can buy those. Those aren’t real things. Those are fictional things, that only exist in a CCP database and cannot be bought (legally).

Alphas can buy everything CCP sells, one of those things (a subscription) will make them an Omega.

I now understand your problem, you don’t understand the difference between the real world and the fictional in-game world.

I mean ingame. With ingame money. Isks
An Alpha can’t buy a t2 frigate with Isks even if he has them
An Omega can

1 Like