what are the pros and cons of having a corp use NRDS rules of engagement instead of NBSI? NBSI seems popular, is it because it is easier (politically or less-clicking-wise) than NRDS? is it because it is easier to identify everyone unknown as enemies? and then players feel safer? or is it because pilots find it annoying to figure out if they are on someone else’s red list somewhere? or something else?
I know of the blue donut and how people can strongly feel about it but I don’t want this discussion to derail into that, thanks in advance.
On the surface NRDS seems good but eventually you have 80% of Eve on your red list so it ends up being the same as NBSI with more work involved and just the appearance of taking the high ground.
The pro side is that you can go to that space and mine, rat, explore, live, build without having to be part of a big group that lives there. You can enjoy null sec without having to join trash cans like Karma or Brave or Horde. As long as you don’t shoot, you can actually be an independent null sec living person.
It is easier to allow people to just do stuff and set them red retroactively if they harm the people living there compared to set many things blue and than having to manage the blue standings because people are spies or turn coat.
NBSI only works because you have a stranglehold on the space you live in and no one else but the blues are allowed to be there. If you wanted to have an area of space that is open to anyone that doesn’t hurt you and just wants to live there alongside existing people, NBSI crumbles.
From a random player perspective, sure. But who is going to “own” and police that NRDS? THEY are the ones who set the rules and (have to) enforce them.
From a holder point of view NRDS is a massive pain in the arse and it generally attracts “weak” players who expect (and even demand, which is hilarious) that space is made safe FOR them without chiming in. And those weak players attract more wolves making it all a giant mess.
Attracting the weak is not an issue in Horde, Karma or Brave. The difference between them and an NRDS region for these weak players is that they don’t sully their employment history with trash.
That the weak attract more wolves is not really an issue as it happens with NBSI, too. The difference is that NRDS just needs to set them red while NBSI needs to keep checking blues for spies and awoxers. This is only manageable because you don’t allow anyone but your blues to “legally” use your space. With NRDS, anyone can use that space that some group polices, owns, makes available.
At the request of @Shipwreck_Jones (not sure if I should thank him, lol). As concise as possible:
In contrast with NBSI, which is the more natural set of rules of engagement in EvE’s universe, NRDS makes life a little more complicated, especially related to SOV NRDS where one is indeed depending on a level of goodwill from bigger blocs for its very existence when not implemented from a position of strength. For NRDS groups the situation is “do not fire unless fired upon”, which usually puts them at a disadvantage in pvp. The old remedy, a KOS-list holding players considered hostile because of previous infractions, is not flawless and may even be unfair in the long run (see provi’s history).
There isn’t really a PRO anymore, especially now that the large blocs have their own recruitment programs and corporations for (very) fresh pilots, offering better protection against invasion and aggression in general, while the old PRO argument was that it constituted a low barrier for nullsec (or wh) life. The only tiny PRO argument left with SOV NRDS is the chance to grow from neutrals who are allowed to sample nullsec PvE life.
So what’s left ? It’s a clear choice of conduct, a self-imposed limitation if you will, and that can become a group identity for like-minded people. It has the added risk of becoming labeled as an elitist group by non-NRDS groups and attract extra (negative) attention. NRDS rules by themselves do not give benefits, only the corp/alliance environment and policies can create any benefit (which is true for any corp/alli regardless of nrds/nbsi/npsi). Bottom line, it’s what you make of it, and how you make it attractive for your members, and convince them of the added risk - so something extra will be needed. An example: NRDS groups like Signal Cartel, could be shot out of existence easily, but they give a clear advantage to the EvE community in general by their rescue programs in w-space and, as far as I know, are left in relative peace. Provi bloc was an entirely different matter. See other threads. Setting your group apart from the main stream is not without extra dangers.
the biggest takeways I’ve gotten is that NBSI/NPSI (yes I forgot to include purp) is less work both to manage standings and figuring out who to shoot. implying its also especially easier to organize defense for things like timers (not just sov but structures too). the pros I got out for NRDS are just being around ideologically different people. which also sticks out like a sore thumb which gets whacked like everything in Eve.
@Wadiest_Yong thank for your reply, I read your thread about fall of provi and end of NRDS in sov space thread. I wonder how much NRDS opinion is around their specific implementation. I was not and am not privy to the years (Decade?) inside history. I guess that is what you mean about signal cartel – you need to be quirky and small and offer something unique, simply saying “we’re NRDS sov” is not unique enough to compel people to join up or aid in defence.
It probably colors the opinion of many people because of the long and interesting history of the provi bloc, and the manner in which they implemented and maintained it over the years. Most of the long-term issues with non-NRDS groups/pilots’ judgment, in my personal opinion, was mostly the properties of that infamous KOS list. Providence was a poor region in terms of isk generation in general. The bloc itself tried to stay as neutral as possible in any conflict, unless being invaded.
When cap fleets became an important part of the meta, the provi bloc never matched that, either in numbers or in experience. Hence my earlier comment “when not implemented from a position of strength”, although at closer inspection that is true for any alliance/bloc. It was just so that Provi felt like an area that existed because others allowed it to exist, but that would be disrespectful towards the many pilots active in the defense and standing fleets every single day. The truth and the reality are somewhere in between, I guess.
That’s my opinion at least, that these rules do need to be accompanied by something significant, towards the members and towards the community. NRDS adds a few significant handicaps that make you more vulnerable as a group and slows its development (you can’t just try what you want i.e., roaming and shooting anyone but reds, invading, conquering, join in any other conflict, etc). You have to remain neutral. The quirkier the fewer people will be interested too.
But here’s me also hoping that (sov) NRDS makes a significant return. It adds color and quirkiness and choices.
Try and drive your military vehicles across the border into another country without permission or warning and see what virtues civilization is built on.
