I don’t reacall any content being removed from the game and I’m not saying it should be. If u want to chill running a lvl4 I do perfectly understand it and I wouldn’t mind some new missions added to the poll myself.
Like you said yourself pve will never become pvp - because humans. But EvE is what it is - an ecosystem heavily dependant on pvp and ships being blown. Without it industry, mining or pve wouldn’t make any sense. I do believe, although I may be wrong, that bridging the gap between pve and pvp would make those that arent inclined to pvp better prepared for it when it finally catches them or maybe even more happy to go for it.
As for the RW - it failed because people are obsessed with rewards. Content itself is quite ok, and would be cool tweaked some more. Same goes for the FOB’s and mining fleets - content itself is great. It’s fresh, dynamic, it adapts to conditions. It could be tweaked here and there, especially in terms of those unfortunate rewards but it’s cool. At least in my opinion.
not because humans, it was designed this way. “The god mode”. If we could do pve content in pvp fits we wouldn’t have this discussion. You can’t argument that ecosystem depends on blowing ships up. Do you think pver would risk 1,5 bil marauder in lvl4 mission just because industry cogs must spins? Pve content is not for that, devs are. They should balance the ships to the point most of them would be pvp viable and thus losed in pvp combat.
they not obsessed, they do pve to get rewards, if there are none or not worth the time content won’t be done. RW has meaningless background. Why we should help the empires? Where are the results of our help? We grind for what? Also we can’t choose role here, we must mine, we not only defend the orca? Why not gave equal reward for mining or defending but maybe double it when people do both so it gave them incentive to group for better rewards. It’s tiered, gated, content. I’m sceptical for all that social group pve content and I “blame” last roundtable for what we have with RW (assuming CCP listen and create it based on last roundtable ofc).
Yes, the industry side of EVE depends on ships blowing up and people wanting to replace them and also from people wanting more stuff. Where else do you think minerals and every other resources go towards? If nothing got destroyed, we would need much less of everything. As for the marauder, people use it because they think it is the best way to run missions, of course not because they want to get it blown up for the sake of industry. But by flying it, they put it at risk of getting blown up and it happens once in a while. And if missions were more challenging (and NPCs could figure out gankers are on their side), it might happen even more to see players engage marauders mid-missions to blow them up. Not all ships need to be viable in pvp, they just all need to be at risk of pvp.
There’s nothing new to be done with the old style missions, really. At most people want more of the same for variety that will become stale in a few weeks. Having PvE that is closer to PvP means changing, adapting challenges which takes longer to master and remains engaging longer. That’s a lot more interesting for times when you actually want to play actively, instead of just chilling and slaughtering harmless npcs. And when you want to chill, well just go back to L4s, nothing needs to get removed, there’s just no need for more of the old stuff.
wrong, we had that with burners and it’s now the same as old missions, solved puzzles. They suppose to introduce pvp style gameplay, do you think they learn pvers something? I don’t think so. Stop pretending pvp style rat will teach anything and help pve player in pvp game such as EvE. If pve player don’t know that he/she is playing pvp game, and he/she might lose ship to the pvp players nothing will help that.
I remind you that this is roundtable about pve and what is wrong with it not how to bring pve player into pvp. Some of you still don’t understand that they may be players in this game that don’t bother with combat pvp.
But… I’m not trying to learn about pvp in pve. I’m trying to get engaging pve where I need to pay attention instead of turning on my tank, letting lose my drones and watching netflix.
So far, this has only happened with things like the new AI and I strongly support continuing in that direction. I honestly don’t know what you support. More repetitive “shoot the red crosses but not that one, ok shoot it now, now shoot these red crosses but not that new one, etc.”?
Whole point is to make that happen. And no, not retrospectively.
Pve’r flies a 1,5b marauder because its efficient and because he can afford one. Thing is that when it comes to a point where pvp happens that marauder is completely unprepared and easy to counter.
I do share that point of view unfortunatedly. Don’t like it either.
Believe it or not I am one of those players. My point is that having pvp fitted ships in pve would, maybe, make pve’er better prepared for pvp and less whiny about it. If it makes them actually want to give it a try, its a bonus.
Nope, the vast majority of my PvE is either L4s or events while they are happening. I’ve not yet encountered a L4 that isn’t pretty damn simple in a sniper domi. I even switched to brawling fits just to make things a bit more fun at the cost of efficiency…
FOBs are something I want to try, but you need the right group to do it. A more approachable/affordable cruiser/BC gated equivalent though, I would be all over that.
see what we are talking about here? Not the pve content. I want to talk about new mission types. We should talk about what to do with the Damsel not how to lure pve player into pvp. Pve player will whine anyway after a loss on gate camp. They are flying solo they can’t stand a gang, even in pvp fit. PvE won’t be a stepping stone to pvp nor should be. It’s not what it is for, it’s just ISK farm connected to the economy in some way or another, for many players, ISKs that fuel pvp.
@Iwo_Sh_ivah
Yeah, I don’t like the idea of using the test server to figure things out, but maybe I should…
Yes, new PvE, be it missions or something else, that are more engaging than the current boring L4s with stupid NPCs that MWD straight towards you so you can blap them. Missions that feel like you’re playing a game instead of … well I’m not even sure how to describe the current ones. They’re not a chore but, they’re not fun or challenging either.
Speaking of the Damsel, why don’t Kruul and his henchmen have bookmarks all around their pleasure hubs for fast warps on top of people who try to take away their prettiest girls? Or fit some MJD’s on their battleships? Or have sentry guns capable of engaging at range comparable to battleships? Why did they never invest in a few scythes/exequror to repair their machariels? Why should we want to keep them stupidly MWD’ing towards us and getting murdered? Are we so shaky in our superiority that we need our enemies to be stuck in the stone age of tactics (charge!!!1!1!!11) when we keep getting buffed over the years? (see another battleship buff just now). It made sense 15 years ago when computers were so much worse, when T2 modules did not exist, etc., but the power creep for capsuleers has left missions in a sad, sad state.
Even WoW, the mmo we so love to laugh at, has more complex NPCs than our “hardcore” EVE.
No it’s not about teaching PvP. If a miner learns that they mid-slots which have a purpose, that it a good thing. If they learn that being mobile mitigates incoming damage, that it a good thing. If they learn something other than just being AFK for the duration, guess what, yea also a good thing.
25% percent of miners fly the retriever, and one dies in New Eden every twenty minutes. It’s a balloon with mining strips duct-tapped on. Because it only takes one prick to ruin your day. A sitting duck and no tank.
It is about learning they have options. I applaud the design of RW and lament it’s failure.
guess what, If a miner losed a barge to a ganker he already learn a lesson in the best way, there is no need for pve to do that. It’s not all about NPE, pve should not be treated as learning grounds, at least not all of it. I thought there were fitted ships given in the tutorials so player already should now that undocking without having a tank is not a good idea. If you insist RW mechanism may be used in miner missions, because now, they are just how much rock you bring to the agent.
players don’t want that, they want to feel good like and paint their hulls with the blood of pirates, mission become stale not because what you describe but because it’s the same all over again. It’s about ISK earning, if the pve players want what you describe they would start to pvp. There is a mission with defending the miner barge. I know exactly where the next spawn will land, roids are in the same place as they were 100 times before. It feel scripted because it is scripted. So missions will grow tired fast for those who want something more from them. System is old and not flexible. I have no idea if mission can be generated. For example “bounty hunting” mission. You get 3 randomly generated location (let’s say pleasure hub, station, mining colony), in one of them there will be a target, you have to put warp disruptor in order to catch the target, destroy or catch after he goes into hull. So we would have mission types instead scripted “named” missions. The would have to be scripted anyway but if we add many types of them to the pool they won’t feel the same as we do them. They might use some new AI ofc. For example warp off if they start to take casualties, warp in-out.
Whole point is, pve don’t need pvp style AI. We already have that in the game, it’s called pvp. It is ISK gathering activity.
That is a slippery slope. I remember many years ago and way before I started to pvp I didn’t like the idea of my ship blowing up but at the time it was no big deal to replace it.
Now it is a very different story. The same activity that was enough to fund my pvp doesn’t even cover a tech one cruiser with guns on anymore.
If a bright cookie knew about the people instead of having a phd in economics the cookie would know that people want to have a steady income which allows them to do things.
Just because some special snowflakes were born on Ferengi Na’h, does not mean everyone else did.
To make a real world analogy, sales(wo)man are the worst enemy of scientists and engineers for a reason.
In a perfect world, I could do some pve in my terms to get the gear I want to risk in pvp also on my terms.
The capsuleers that want “pvp” (in quotes here) to blow up a pve ship that is not equipped for fight back and believe in the easter bunny and the tooth fairy and that blowing up a pve boat is good for the economy but it is not.
It is only good for them because they “prove” that they can shoot a pve that is not equipped to put up any resistance, so they believe in Santa Clause too.
The same snowflakes however are very good at running away very fast when they encounter resistance because they cannot win against a ship that is equipped to engage.
Whenever those snowflakes believe they are good for the easter bunny or economy they are painfully mistaken.
If you look why goon-bot are farming sanctums all day long with impunity it is because nobody in a roaming ship will want to try and engage a sooper dooper that brings more sooper dooper doopers.
This creates this upward spiral that some phd in economics would explain with economics blah blah they only a Ferengi can understand.
If I wanted to “fight” some insta-gib pve monster entity I cannot win against, I would say so or do it.
I want at least a 90% chance of winning before I go ahead and try something in pve.
I can agree with a 51% chance of winning in pvp when I engage something and am much more eager to do it way more often when I have a steady supply of replacements.
The Ferengi that are unable to pvp need to blobbh or bring sooper dooper doopers to “feel safe” because they know they cannot win with even odds.
Well, I’m certainly not one of those players you talk about. I enjoy challenging PvE I can complete (and occasionally wipe out on) with a few (online/space) friends. The last time I had fun in a group with missions was because someone popped all the triggers at the wrong time and then called a few of us for reinforcement. Then it was actually challenging and we felt good after finishing it. The current missions don’t generally satisfy that at all unless you handicap yourself and moving some asteroids won’t change that. PvE involves blowing up spaceships. If would be nice if the NPC spaceships felt like there were people in them now that we know it is possible. If you want a relaxed isk making activity, why not mining? Rocks don’t fight back either but there it makes sense. I’ve actually started mining more, since the rock AI works really well for what it should do, unlike the NPC one, so it’s not as jarring and reading a newspaper while letting the drones mine seems exactly like what a space miner would do.
I like your idea of a bounty hunting mission though. It makes you actually fly your ship around and engage more than just let lose the auto-targetting missiles/drones. And it could have some hacking to get hints of where to go too!
@elitatwo
Your posts would be so much easier to understand if you toned down the hyperboles and restricted yourself to eve. I know ferengis are greedy bastards from Star Trek but… I guess they’re cowards too?
Honestly, stuff blowing up everywhere is good for the economy as a whole (but of course it sucks for the owner of the ship blowing up right now). If we never lost anything we would never need more. The player numbers are certainly not growing enough to keep all miners and industrials making enough isk to warrant continuing.
Of course, most of that stuff blowing up is PvP and that’s fine. I don’t want to lose more than I make when I do PvE either, not even close. It needs to be a profitable occupation otherwise who would bother? But the current missions are not challenging or engaging. Make them harder so that it would make sense for two alphas to team up or for marauders to fit more than a single medium rep. Make them require to actually pilot instead of MJD-snipe being the solution every time. There is a large margin to make things a lot more engaging without bringing the risk much higher than a few %.
The only things that puts people at risk is being pointed or neuted so you can’t warp out. Be reasonable with that an you can crank up many other things. Pointing npcs are the one thing that will make me actually pay attention when running L4s, but once they’re dead, back to easy mode. I need to dive in a WH again, I guess… it’s too bad sleepers don’t come in HS. I dislike mixing my PvE with PvP… (ironic, isn’t it?)
I know it is and I am the first to make it happen, just not when I don’t have anything and have do 5 years of pve to buy one pvp boat.
I would do it every day but my income is the same and all price tags are at 4x times as much as they were.
Fair enough, LS pvp is a fair bit trickier because of the sec status hit. I have an alt dedicated to FW, although I still haven’t actually used it… Certainly, PvE needs to remain an isk source, hence the emphasis everyone puts on rewards, me included.
Resource Wars was one sided and centered on Mining. I’m an Explorer who also does Security Missions, not a Mining player. When I first heard about RW’s, I thought great, I’ll come in and defend the Mining ships in my PvE Combat ship. No, in order for players to to complete the sites, they are forced to do mining in a race against the clock. Being forced to do something you don’t want to do is never fun, especially when it doesn’t give any worthwhile rewards.
Instancing of the sites wasn’t a problem at all, unless you’re a suicide ganker looking to score some easy KM’s. Course nobody’s gonna do those sites in high sec if they can’t defend against gank squads, even if the rewards were good.
Social PvE, I’m surprised this is the ‘go to’ term now for forcing players to do something they don’t want to do. There already is a ‘Fleet Finder’ that’s been in-game for a long time. The reason it never went big is due to the constant threat of Awox gank traps. Sorry but due to the nature of this game, the number one rule is don’t trust anyone.
The Agency is fine as an overview of various activities available in game. What it doesn’t do is provide specific detailed info on each topic that’s listed in it. Those topics were much more user friendly and detailed in their original locations, they never should have been removed. The Agency would have been better as the appetizer for those main courses.
FoBs/Soitoyos biggest problem is single player reward for group, next main issue is having NPC’s roam around in High Sec and attack players with impunity. I can see these NPC’s doing it in Low and Null Sec space, but in High Sec? The NPC AI game mechanics is basically forcing players to engage in a large group activity. As I said before, nobody likes being forced to do something they don’t want to do.
Same goes for the NPC Mining Fleet’s in High Sec, definitely don’t need to have a bunch of bot fleets running around attacking players all the time.
Missions are fine, just need to randomize the spawn triggers and beef up the amount of wrecks containing loot drops. Some players mentioned having missions do spin offs / mini escalations, I think that’s a great idea. Personally I like the idea of adding another Agent division for exploration based missions that incorporate scanning, hacking, logistics, combat, courier and manufacturing.
Now I’m not talking about going up against new NPC AI’s that have all lv 5 skills with Purple fit ships. That’s why I don’t like running Burner missions. The whole point of mission running is to make ISK from the NPC Bounty’s. If you make the NPC’s tougher then you’ll have to scale back the amount of NPC’s, thus players end up making less ISK. Hell, the mission rewards have been the same for a long time and are pretty much worthless as they are now.
I’m going to add that exploration sites should have random spawn triggers too. Also to prevent blitzing, make contents of hacking cans immune to scanning and have all defending NPC’s be destroyed before the Boss / Commander NPC spawns. Plus the amount of wrecks containing loot needs to be increased as well.
I think Sansha Incursions are fine, it’s equal pay to all involved in the group, it’s optional and doesn’t do a big disruption on players who don’t want to engage in that content. Like I said, I’m an explorer / solo mission runner and the amount of ISK Incursion runners make doesn’t bother me at all.
