[Q2] Blocking Warp Core Stabs from FW Acceleration Gates

[Alexander_Oromov]

@Oreb_Wing

There has already been a restriction put in place a long time ago in disallowing cloak activation within 30km of the warp in beacon. FW has since done better for that change.

Restricting navigation and restricting the use case of a module are two entirely different things. The better solution would be to disallow WCS fitted ships from counting down timers, but that’s apparently not possible due to performance issues.

[Oreb_Wing]

I’ve already told someone else how that can be gamed to negatively effect your enemies by having an alt in the enemy militia with a single warp core stab on to disrupt their progress on any complex you warp him into. You are not thinking ahead. This is game breaking, as you cannot clear that alt without suffering a heavy standing loss.

[Alexander_Oromov]

@Arazu_Helios

This would hold weight if gates were unrestricted, but they are not they are already limited by class and designation not only in FW but also DEDs etc.

Can’t see how this is relevant. I am talking about ship fittings, not ship restrictions. Currently, despite ship restrictions we can still fit whatever we want and slide the appropriate complex size.

@Arazu_Helios

People are losing or have no knowledge of why the FW community as a whole is asking for WCS action. It is to decrease botting farmers immunity to risk - which dictates the course of the warzone by artificially altering dominance of one side not by combat or strategy, but by farming. WCS removal or restriction would allow ligitimate tackle and engagement without the farmer having zero risk due to stabs.

Who are those people who are losing and have no knowledge of why? As far I am concerned the FacWar community knows their game pretty well.

I also can’t see how farmers are bots and immune to risk. Any triple scram fitted ship or coordinated group can catch and kill farmers. The ones who pay attention get away proving that they are actually human and paying attention.

And last but not least, how do farmers decide the fate of the warzone? Last I checked, you have to actually take the iHub which leaves plenty of room for combat and strategy. Sure, they can up vulnerability, but taking the system requires a focused group effort.

And do you really expect them to go away if they can’t use WCS? Most definitely not. They’ll just go in with empty ships, ecm or tanked dual web scram afterburner ships. But we will be left with fitting restrictions that may only be the beginning, starting to take away freedom from players to fly what they want.

[Alexander_Oromov]

@Oreb_Wing

I’ve already told someone else how that can be gamed to negatively effect your enemies by having an alt in the enemy militia with a single warp core stab on to disrupt their progress on any complex you warp him into. You are not thinking ahead. This is game breaking, as you cannot clear that alt without suffering a heavy standing loss.

Cant see the game breaking yet. It’s a matter of implementation. Nobody said that WCS will stop timers, the goal is to stop them from running timers themselves. So if at least one of the ships on grid is valid, counters can run down as usual.

[Oreb_Wing]

@Alexander_Oromov

Nobody said that WCS will stop timers, the goal is to stop them from running timers themselves. So if at least one of the ships on grid is valid, counters can run down as usual.

Then CCP is right to rather have that check on the gate once, rather then having it pulse for a scan however often from inside.

[Adam_Parvi]

Welp, i see a lot of supports over this. now it feels like I’m the only one that does not support it

[Makshima_Shogo]

The question is why don’t you support it and if that reason is accounted for and something else is changed so that your concern is fixed will you support the removal of Stabs?

[Arazu_Helios]

@Alexander_Oromov

I also can’t see how farmers are bots and immune to risk. Any triple scram fitted ship or coordinated group can catch and kill farmers. The ones who pay attention get away proving that they are actually human and paying attention.

Triple scram compromised fit yes & if it isn’t a farmer you just lost. But yes a specific hard counter does work there is no denying that. But the risk of warping into something that is not the farmer or being 3rd partied is worth considering. The point with module restriction is to introduce risk for farmers and in the main the botters this isn’t to stop active plexers, as you say anyone paying attention in this activity doesn’t have a problem let alone have a requirement for stabs in a plex.

@Alexander_Oromov

And last but not least, how do farmers decide the fate of the warzone? Last I checked, you have to actually take the iHub which leaves plenty of room for combat and strategy. Sure, they can up vulnerability, but taking the system requires a focused group effort.

And do you really expect them to go away if they can’t use WCS? Most definitely not. They’ll just go in with empty ships, ecm or tanked dual web scram afterburner ships. But we will be left with fitting restrictions that may only be the beginning, starting to take away freedom from players to fly what they want.

Firstly, anyone with time in FW knows exactly how farmers dictate the ebb and flow of WZ mechanics, both offensively and defensively. Yes the ihub needs popping but that is just a structure bash and one that can be manipulated to happen in oppo prime time or when the aggressor will have clear superiority &/or batphones.

Secondly, no I don’t expect them to go away and yes the fits will change, the point is they will no longer be able to simply let themselves be tackled and then warp away to wait you out. The change of meta following this yes may still be frustrating but the bots/farmers still have a factor of risk in their activity equal to anyone else in plex and are a damn sight more engageable which basically is more content for all in one respect.

[Maximus_Ogrecuck]

Honestly, I like this change, but think that maybe 1 warp core stab should be allowed. Centain memefits use that the disengage from kites, and it would be a shame if they weren’t allowed in plexses.

[Nat_Silverguard]

Sorry, NO!

[Lena_Crews]

@Solidus_Obscura

Do you guys plan on doing the WCS and Cloak change together? Or do the WCS first and then consider doing something with barring cloaks?

In regards to Cloaks, what will be the stance, then, on using Force Recons, which essentially provide the same surprise factor as cloaks when someone slides into the plex?

I would point out that essentially due to how the gates work cloaks won’t be prevented from being used.

Cloaks and WCS can only be used in large plexes.
Force Recons can only be used in Medium and large plexes.
The small and novice plexes have more restrictions, which I think is okay. Heck, I’m in favor of making novice plexes truly “novice”… and not even let pirate frigates in. T1 standard frigates only… no asteros or worms.

[Photek_Spor]

Stabs cloaks and anything that can not be detected on D-Scan, should be blocked from taking the gates.

[Adam_Parvi]

because im one of the stab users in FW because im horrible at PVP

[Havoc_Lamperouge]

Indeed.

[Zircon_Dasher]

@CCP_Fozzie

Would it be easier to make wsc active modules and prevent activation like cloaks?

AFAiK, your fix is the first time CCP has suggested limiting where players can go based on fitting a module. For some reason that is not sitting right with me. Its not a huge deal either way.

[Oreb_Wing]

Camps and bubbles that restrict where you can freely go have been around for a long time. And no one is telling you you can’t go somewhere. You just can’t have access to a specific space made for a specific reason with this module fit inside this specific space. I sure wish non-fw players would realize this before they spew their grand opinions about an area of the game they have not participated in or plan to. Don’t get me started on FW missions…

Same goes for pirates complaining about how these features affect THEIR experience of the game, when they know full well they are entering Factional Warfare content to be teased by stabs. As someone has said before, warp core stabs are as much a symptom of awful gameplay mechanics (defensive plexing payouts specifically) as much as afk farming high tier solely as a means of making Isk, without any interests in warzone control.

Change the way defensive plexing pays out, and you get rid of stabs without any kind of restriction in place necessary. Have dplexing stop paying out again and give systems a LOW passive regen to contested levels, and problem solved. No more empty ships. No more stabs. No more extra restrictions to cloaks.

[Solstice_Projekt]

@Oreb_Wing

Camps and bubbles that restrict where you can freely go have been around for a long time.

As far as I remember, the point was to disallow them entry, right? That would be hard coded into the game, which is something else than camps or bubbles, which are being placed by players. A hard coded mechanic can not be avoided (except maybe by using exploits, which does not count here), while camps can be passed successfully and bubbles only stop your ship.

Only the first of these three truly prevents you from doing something, or in your words “restrict where you can go freely”, while the latter two are obstacles you can overcome. It is indeed a thing that I do not remember having ever before seen in this game, just like the ship limitation for the mining-op-mini-site… what was it called again? No one ever talks about them…

[Oreb_Wing]

@Solstice_Projekt well said. I am still in favor of defensive plexing payouts being changed entirely for some other way to reduce contested levels. My corporates and I have discussed this and have already found it a poor change. Farmers will find another way, even if it’s using empty hulls. This is just the simplest solutions to the easiest farming method, just as Calmil and Amarmil webbing NPC frigates was supposed to balance fw missions, but all it ever did was knock out most of the competition stealth bombers were giving t3c’s. It was a stupid thing to do that didn’t fix anything. This will be the same. I hope Rixx Javix enjoys bragging about his empty hull kills, or losing them to oversized props.

[Solstice_Projekt]

I have no idea. I am not following this trainwreck of a topic called FW/farmers/PLEXes. I would never waste time on this, and would instead find a solution that includes the plausible ability of replacing it completely. In the current state, that is the far more efficient approach. Irrelevant, I digress.

CCP is currently on a PR wave to make things brighter for FanFest. It remains to be seen if CCP’s currently rather positive “feedback” actually lasts, or if history is simply repeating itself for the Nth number of times.

People are too easily fooled. vOv

I think I am wildly off topic and if so: Sorry about that. Time for bed. : - )

[Oreb_Wing]

I feel that the recent changes are definitely deserving of the optimism people are feeling at the moment. If they really want to give us FW scrubs something we can appreciate,

1. get us those docking restrictions to apply on Upwell structures as well as stations.

2. Put an end to LP farming by mission spammers, the real culprit to tier manipulation and the ‘pendulum’. The easiest way is t2 and t3 restriction to the FW mission acceleration gates. There is no way any side can sustain high tier like this without an easy/safe way to run those missions.

3. For heaven’s sake and all that is good, understand that defensive plexing, which requires absolutely zero effort, has to change – not warp core stabs. Don’t reward me for failing to defend my systems by waiting until they are highly contested; don’t punish me for keeping them low and giving me absolutely nothing to show for hours of deplexing systems to maintain them ‘stable’.