Actually I never tried to do that kind of hauling and I don’t have some compressed minerals and a DST here to try. I tried to explain there that actually that guy was wrong with the amount of trips, at least on paper… You can take it as you want.
I know… the mining in NS was done only with moon mining… I think the normal mining was kind of dead in NS… From my perspective the removal was a good thing… The problem is what it hit a lot of people which invested in that endeavor…
Only because of the sheer number of stupid players eagerly flying expensive targets directly to the most common ganking spots. Take away the stupid players and profitable ganking becomes virtually impossible. You’d have to start doing things like social engineering and corp infiltration to try to convince someone to put an excessive cargo value in their ship to even have a target at all.
Not really, there are plenty of gank targets that make a profit even once you eliminate the stupid.
The “profit” level required to be worth ganking is actually incredibly low, the current threshold is only because the gankers would rather wait 2 minutes before someone over that comes along.
Like? What ship can’t be brought down sufficiently in expected loot drop that it will always be profitable to gank and there is no viable alternative?
That isn’t what you said, you said eliminate the stupid.
Ganking a freighter is still profitable at about 400 mil in cargo. That’s what, 2 or 3 T1 Battleships at current value. Saying you aren’t allowed to haul 3 T1 battleships at once because it’s profitable to gank you is stupid.
Even a single faction module makes you profitable to gank on some ships, that’s not stupid to have a single faction module. Heck, I’m pretty sure in the frigate range you can get profitable to gank (on averages of course) from just a T2 fit in some cases.
A fully tanked freighter, or just a cargo expanded freighter?
Also, 400 million ISK may be the point where it’s technically a non-zero profit but opportunity cost is still a thing. You have to make enough profit compared to just farming highsec level 4s or whatever or it’s not worth it.
Saying you aren’t allowed to haul 3 T1 battleships at once because it’s profitable to gank you is stupid.
You aren’t allowed to haul that much value through the known ganking systems. Split it up if you have to fly through a 0.5 next to Jita, at least then ganking requires a bunch of scouting work instead of just camping the Uedama gate and pressing F1 every time something with 400+ million ISK value comes through the gate.
Oh I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware fitting a ship for it’s PRIMARY PURPOSE was now considered stupid. Is putting DPS modules on a combat ship now stupid also because it increases your chance of a gank?
No, that’s your value judgement. As long as it is profitable at all gankers may be happy to keep killing because they also get KM’s from it, and they value the KM’s enough to offset that profit difference. Some do it when it’s unprofitable after all just for the KM, so we know that’s the case.
Which you have to go through as it’s a choke point.
You are just arguing to be an ass now. You know this is true that gankers will just lower the level they bother ganking at if stupid is eliminated, and that it’s while theoretically possible utterly stupid to require everyone to fly at the unprofitable to gank level because of how low this is.
P.S. Also note that nowhere here have I said that this is a bad thing and needs nerfing or anything.
So, you’ve never done hauling, yet you wanted to try and correct my numbers and got them utterly wrong. Showing that you have no idea how this entire update is actually going to impact on industry.
Yet you want to continue to claim that it’s a bad update while demonstrating you have no understanding of the overall picture involved…
Yeah…
You can still do the job of a freighter with tank instead of cargo expanders. Reducing HP to cram even more ISK into a ship is pure reckless greed, taking that over-filled ship into known ganking systems turns it into stupidity.
No, that’s your value judgement.
Well yes, but the premise of my statement about ganking depending on stupid people is that we’re talking about profitable ganking where you’re ganking because it is an effective way of getting ISK. Killing T1 frigates for 100k ISK in profit an hour may technically be making a profit but it’s only attracting the people who gank empty freighters for killboard stats.
Which you have to go through as it’s a choke point.
Only if you want to get to Jita, and do it with the most efficient route possible. And of course Uedama is an important system, but if people are flying to a jump or two out from Uedama, splitting their cargo into multiple small loads, and flying through the choke point with ships that can’t be profitably ganked then camping Uedama for easy kills is no longer a profitable strategy.
You know this is true that gankers will just lower the level they bother ganking at if stupid is eliminated
Or stop ganking entirely. People ganking for profit want to make a profit, there’s a limit to how low that profit can go before they find something else to do instead.
But people ganking for profit are not the entirety of the ganking community, and the level of profit required for some who gank ‘for profit’ can also be minimal.
Sure, eliminate the stupid, some will move onto something else, but some won’t. And since we are talking about ganking in general, those some who will still gank for 1 isk profit matter.
I said I never tried to do what that guy was doing in WH. I actually corrected his numbers, because he was claiming to have to do over 100 trips to get the materials for an Orca outside and I disagree based on a simple calculation. If what you are saying it’s true regarding the DST, then it can get out in 1 trip.
My posts are about the mining changes impact on the whole industry from an economical point of view, not about the hauling impact. Learn to read.
Except we aren’t. I specifically singled out profitable ganking in the statement you responded to.
Obviously ganking just to get killmails no matter how much it costs will always be easy, because there’s no conceivable way to make “attack a single target with 50+ ships at once” anything but easy. Any increase in difficulty can be countered by throwing more ISK at the problem until you’re right back to automatic “wins”. But that’s not a very interesting discussion to have because it’s nothing more than stating the obvious, that having superior numbers is an effective strategy.
Way to cherrypick. We’re talking about localised mineral resources. Therefore, my answer is completely valid. If the only source for a particular mineral is Highsec, then Highsec is absolutely relevant. If said mineral can be sourced elsewhere, that renders Highsec irrelevant in terms of the discussion. We’re not talking about trade, you can do that literally anywhere in New Eden, even to the point of jetcanning a bunch of stuff or transferring between fleet hangars and trusting the other guy won’t sod off without paying.
You said that, not me. What I’m asking is why should wormholers retain the balance they have now if everybody else has to endure whatever change is affecting the rest of the game universe?
I haven’t seen the video, give me a link and the timestamp where it was said and colour me surprised.
Again, I think you’re mixing things up where it doesn’t need to be. We’re talking about locally sourced minerals, not haulage/trade.
That’s the only bit of my comment you’re going to quote and comment on? There’s a word for that. “Cherrypicking”. Again, if people didn’t want features, situations or whatever else is going on, they’d go do something else. They wouldn’t open their wallets for EVE. That’d be like paying someone to punch you in the face. Repeatedly. With a nail in a piece of wood.
In ganking the preparation is all done up front: scouting juicy target 1-2 jumps away, bringing enough people/alts, prespawning concord. Once you’ve done that no further (meaningful) effort is required and victory is automatic for the rest of your ganking run. Doing another gank is very much rinse/repeat the same actions over and over.
If you’re trying to profitably run exploration sites preparation i.e. clearing rooms of rats has to be done over and over for each site, and a chance of unprofitable site remains. It’s actually 80% of no reward at all. You’re doing the equivalent of looking at the final shot against an overseer ship with 1% hull HP remaining and saying “WOW WHAT A WIN BUTTON”.
See, all you’ve said was my pvp ppl are smart and their challenging task requires effort, and your dumb crowd pushes one button to recieve enearned reward. But that is hypocrisy and xenophobia speaking. You’re dismissing the effort the other side is required to make and praising the effort your side is making. While in both cases there is no real challenge in a task you’ve been repeating for years. There is still some effort, but the challenge is mostly self imposed.
I fly Phantasm, I run 3-5/10s with it. It’s awesome against Sansha and Bloods, 2-3 shoting cruisers, 5-6 shoting BS, rips through them. But I also run every other pirate faction. Laser is poor choice against Gurista, 6-7 shots for a cruiser, 1 whole minute for a BS. Guristas Hallucinogen Supply Waypoint 5/10 requires tons of manual piloting, overheating, rare rewarping and overall 40 minutes to clear. But that is all self imposed, because it would take some 15 minutes of safest pewpewing in a Tengu.
Gankers do have better choices, Phoons, polarised Hecates, but they’re trying to balance their expense/profits and are using Catas as often as they can, their challenge is also self imposed.
Should I’ve used a brighter or bigger font? X (video game series)
Wait, do you want every single gank to be profitable? That’s pretty greedy.
Exploration sites are 80% no reward. Missions and ratting are steady lower income. C5-6 WHs are crazy profit under anxiety pressure (you cant roll exits to complete safety anymore, right?), but also 0.001% runs those. T5-6 Abyss are crazy profit but the challenge and FU spawns are real, and again its for 0.001%.
Except no, it isn’t. It has to be done once before each kill. You know, because all the ships you bought are destroyed by CONCORD, you have to scout a new target, etc.
If you’re trying to profitably run exploration sites preparation i.e. clearing rooms of rats has to be done over and over for each site
Except none of that involves any meaningful chance of failure or loss or even investing significant effort. 99% of your meaningful effort in PvE is invested one time and is never repeated for the rest of your EVE career. You will never lose your farming ship(s) or suffer any other setback besides the ammo you spend.
You’re dismissing the effort the other side is required to make
You’re right, because the “effort” is nonexistent. I’ve done plenty of both PvE and PvP in EVE and PvE is an absolute joke unless you’re the kind of person who struggles to remember how to tie their shoes. There’s a reason people run bots to do PvE content 23/7 but nobody has figured out a way to make a PvP bot that can do PvP for hours at a time without supervision.
Gankers do have better choices, Phoons, polarised Hecates, but they’re trying to balance their expense/profits and are using Catas as often as they can, their challenge is also self imposed.
Do you even know the definition of “self imposed”?
Deliberately flying a poorly suited ship (your Phantasm) just to make the game more difficult is playing under a self-imposed limit. Better options exist but you voluntarily apply limits to yourself and refuse to use the more effective option.
Choosing the most efficient ship to maximize your ISK is not a self-imposed limit, it’s using the most effective tool for the job. There is no alternative that would be more efficient at ganking people to obtain ISK, and if anyone ever finds one the gankers will promptly start using it instead.
Should I’ve used a brighter or bigger font? X (video game series)
What’s your point? Those games are not single player EVE, they are entirely different games designed from the ground up to be single player games and not bound by the constraints of the MMO genre.
Wait, do you want every single gank to be profitable? That’s pretty greedy.
WTF no. Please don’t post absurd straw man arguments. I singled out ganking with a profit motive because it’s the only one worth discussing in the context of “how easy is it to win”. In ganking for profit you have a clear win/loss decision: did you earn more than the cost of the gank. And in that context the sole reason that winning is easy is that stupid players keep handing the gankers expensive kills, take those away and wins become much rarer and harder to earn.
If you’re willing to spend 100 million ISK to kill a 1 million ISK T1 frigate then by all conventional standards (economic, military, etc) you have lost that exchange even if you declare “LOL I WIN” on your killboard afterwards. There is no point in talking about “how easy is it to win” questions because the players involved have declared that they always win, regardless of what happens or what anyone else thinks.
Ships are ammo for gankers. Scouting a new target is no harder than getting a new mission. This isn’t difficulty. Yes it is work, but not difficulty.
Again, only because easy targets are abundant and all you really have to do is sit on the gate in Uedama and wait for the next billion ISK loot crate to arrive. Take away the stupid players and that scouting gets a lot harder.
No, it’s nothing to do with that.
Trade routes are known, scouting doesn’t become more difficult if fewer pinata’s are flying the trade routes. Profits may drop because it’s longer between ganks or lower value targets are selected but again, that is not difficulty. That is effort.
Yes, Gankers put plenty of effort in, they put lots of man hours into their logistics, that’s great.
But so do haulers, so do level 4 mission runners.
But none of the above actually deal with real difficulty.
You are confusing effort with difficulty.
Sure it does. If you don’t have the stupid players feeding you a steady supply of expensive loot crates you have to start thinking about going elsewhere. Do you camp the choke point and hope the best targets aren’t willing to take the delay of going around it? Do you get spy alts into various corps and try to track them that way? If you see a marginal target coming do you commit to it or do you let it go and hope for better? Etc. The decision trees get way more complicated than “sit on the Uedama gate and press F1 every 15 minutes”.
But so do haulers, so do level 4 mission runners.
I’ll grant you haulers, but hauling is not a PvE activity. At no point are you in opposition with the environment or NPCs, everything about it is determined by other players.
Level 4 mission runners do not invest effort. It’s an incredibly menial task best done while mostly AFK doing something else in another window. In fact, highsec level 4 farming is the textbook example of everything I hate about EVE’s PvE.
But none of the above actually deal with real difficulty.
You are confusing effort with difficulty.
The define “real difficulty”, because the dictionary definition for difficult is literally “needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.”
Yeah, as I thought, you are resorting to BS dictionary references used out of context. And you are also dismissing any effort you don’t think counts.
See the bit you didn’t bother to highlight about skill, lets also go with meaningful complexity as a relevant part of difficulty. And perhaps also include meaningful decision making DURING the action as part of difficulty.
Ganking currently is a time intensive but not difficult task. Assuming you do it in an optimal way anyway, deliberately making your life harder counts as little for ganking as it does for running PvE in a Corvette.
This is where I see ganking having issues. It takes too much prep time, but not enough difficulty in the action itself. And want to see prep time reduced but action difficulty added.