Removed some off-topic and inappropriate posts again…
ISD Bahamut
Thanks CCP, this update will not cause more mining ship destruction. Many, like myself, will just park our mining ships and allow the additional accounts to unsub. I realize that my measly 3 extra accounts aren’t really going to make a dent. That being said, the 30 others in my corp that will drop down to 1 Mission/PvP account will remove around 120 accounts. That’s going to be a bit of a ding.
Good job morons.
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Since ISD has apparently decided that discussion of the effect of resource distribution on miners is off-topic and deleted everything I’ll leave it at this:
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Demand in EVE is mostly inflexible due to EVE being a competitive game where eliminating risk very often involves conceding defeat and letting your enemies destroy your station/take your nullsec territory/etc. Even if prices go up there’s a limit to how low demand can fall, and in many cases players are forced to keep paying no matter what the cost.
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Prices will go up, but if prices go up by 50%, mining income goes up by 60%, and mission income goes up by 5% then the buying power of miners has increased significantly. Because mining is only one component of overall production and industry is only one component of the EVE economy price inflation is not going to be uniform and the net result is that miners who are smart enough to exploit the opportunity will be better off.
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Miners losing their “play style” of AFK mining in highsec is a feature, not a bug. It is a good thing that miners will be pressured to engage with other parts of the game, including combat PvP.
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Even if the gains are only for a small portion of miners this is still a win. Pay less attention to the suffering of your rivals and more attention to how you can be one of the people who profits from the change.
You don’t seem to understand the difference between demand and quantity demanded. Two separate issues. Quantity demanded always declines as price increase…it’s a necessary function of any demand curve (which is what “demand” is). Quantity demanded won’t fall to zero but it will fall…and as it falls, it will reduce mining income all else equal.
Irrelevant to my point. I said miners would be worse off and explained quite clearly why item inflation would be higher than ore inflation. That fact that missioners might be even worse off (economically) doesn’t change whether miners are. If I rob you for 20% of your money, you aren’t better off if I rob your neighbor for 30% of his or hers.
Reductio ad absurdum…you do love those logical fallacies. As if all high sec mining is AFK or only AFK miners are affected by the change. You really should be able to do better after so many posts on this topic. Very few miners do nothing but mine. Most produce or trade their ore for isk. So they already participate in other parts of the game.
You may consider it a win but that does not mean that miners are better off…which was your original (false) contention.
I’m not at all worried about myself because, as I told you before, I don’t mine very much.
You want more people to be victims for you. That’s fine. Makes you better off…no problem. Just don’t pretend it does anything positive for those people.
Have a splendid day : )
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Except for goods with inelastic demand. For example, if you depend on a particular medication to continue living it doesn’t matter what price the manufacturer sets, demand will remain exactly the same and you are going to pay that price. EVE is not to that far end of the scale, but when the choice is between paying the higher price or forfeiting there’s really no choice at all.
If I rob you for 20% of your money, you aren’t better off if I rob your neighbor for 30% of his or hers.
No, because in this example you still have 99.9999999% of the population that has been robbed for 0% of their money and there’s no impact on prices. What you keep failing to understand is that relative buying power is what matters. If a ship costs 10 million ISK pre-change and 100 million ISK post-change a 10x buff to mining income with no change to mission income means that miners now have 10x the wealth. For every 1 ship a mission runner can buy the miner can buy 10, and in a game where sheer numbers trumps almost everything else that’s a huge advantage.
As if all high sec mining is AFK or only AFK miners are affected by the change.
Highsec mining is effectively AFK, and that’s how most people want it to be. Just look at the epic whine threads when triglavians were first added and highsec miners had to pay attention to EVE occasionally instead of putting on a movie in another window and forgetting about it.
Most produce or trade their ore for isk.
Then why are you complaining about them having to engage in trade?
You may consider it a win but that does not mean that miners are better off…which was your original (false) contention.
Sure it does. If the competent miners get double income and the incompetent idiots get half income it’s a buff overall. The people who matter benefit, the ones who don’t can cry and ragequit over it. Anyone who thinks this is a nerf should stop complaining and start trying to figure out why they’ve decided to be in the “incompetent idiot” category instead of winning.
But of course that’s not the choice. I can buy a less expensive ship, make it less blingy or dock up and pray. You are presenting this as binary when it’s not. The choice is never pay the higher price or forfeit. Far too many variables to consider to make it so simple. That you try that argument and claim to know how the game is played is interesting to say the least.
You honestly believe there’s no impact on prices from reducing supply of ore both in aggregate and in refined units per hour? That’s really quite incredible.
Inflation robs everyone of their money/purchasing power, that’s why there’s never been a successful economy in history that ran long period of high inflation. Even when purchasing power keeps up, it’s still a disaster. But that’s more a 201 discussion so we can skip it for now. And far more than 0.0000001% of Eve players will be hit by inflation.
Sounds like you are trolling now. I know a number of people who mine in high sec while at keyboard so your statement is quite clearly incorrect.
I’m not complaining about it. I’m saying that it adds cost to those who want to manufacture in addition to mine. Do try reading what I wrote.
And yet, we had a discussion about whether miners benefit. If you said you thought some miners would benefit, we could have avoided the whole lesson in economics. But perhaps it will be valuable to you at some point down the road.
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It’s not, the rocks simply aren’t big enough.
It may be low risk, but the only way to AFK it is to do it in an incredibly inefficient manner. Deliberately nerfing your yield to only 5% of normal in order to AFK is hardly an issue.
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At which point you lose to the enemy who didn’t. Unless you’re talking about the 0.0001% flown by players with too much money to care the vast majority of PvP ships are already about as cheap as they can be without suffering a loss of effectiveness that outweighs any savings in cost.
You honestly believe there’s no impact on prices from reducing supply of ore both in aggregate and in refined units per hour? That’s really quite incredible.
Wow. That’s certainly dishonest, attempting to take my quote out of its context (a reply to your robbery analogy) and pretend that I’m talking about the mineral change.
Inflation robs everyone of their money/purchasing power, that’s why there’s never been a successful economy in history that ran long period of high inflation.
No. Inflation robs everyone of their investments. Inflation, as long as there is no lag between price inflation and corresponding wage inflation, doesn’t change anything about purchasing power. What it does is absolutely cripple investments. Why would a bank loan you $100k to buy a house if high inflation means that $100k will be worth $10k next year? Why save any of your paycheck if your savings account will be worthless? Etc.
EVE, on the other hand, has none of those things. No banking system, no investment, only cash and expendable assets.
Sounds like you are trolling now. I know a number of people who mine in high sec while at keyboard so your statement is quite clearly incorrect.
So, I guess you are in fact going to ignore the massive rage threads when CCP added NPCs that prevent true AFK mining.
I’m not complaining about it. I’m saying that it adds cost to those who want to manufacture in addition to mine. Do try reading what I wrote.
I did read what you wrote. In your own words:
There’s also a gameplay discussion.
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will spend more time on non mining activities (searching and hauling)
You objected to spending time on non-mining activities as a gameplay issue, not just a cost increase.
And yet, we had a discussion about whether miners benefit. If you said you thought some miners would benefit, we could have avoided the whole lesson in economics. But perhaps it will be valuable to you at some point down the road.
If the best you can do is nitpick about “SOME INCOMPETENT IDIOTS WONT GET THE BENFIT” and complain that I didn’t add a “not all miners” disclaimer then I think that says plenty of bad things about your lack of honesty.
Thus “effectively AFK” and not “literally AFK”. You occasionally have to switch targets but you don’t really have to pay attention to the game and most miners are doing something else in another window that gets most of their focus.
And, again, see all of the rage threads about triglavian spawns. The goal for many miners is absolutely to make it as close to AFK as possible and anything that interferes with that goal is (supposedly) worth quitting over.
Yeah,… I think you seriously underestimate how little you can look away. I mean ok if you have a second monitor you can do something else on that. But you aren’t seriously tabbing out for any period of time large enough to get something meaningful done without losing efficiency.
And I think you also take 20 people raging with 10 alts each as far to representative of the player base.
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Huh, and here I though pvp was about skill. Isn’t that what you guys claim all the time? Now it’s just about isk…who knew?
Nice little caveat you threw in there. There’s always a lag between price inflation and wage inflation. That’s the 201 part of the discussion and why inflationary economies cannot survive.
So cash doesn’t get hurt with inflation? Another interesting point of view.
Not at all. I never said nobody in high sec AFK mined. You claimed everyone did. Said claim being demonstrably false.
And having to do tasks you don’t enjoy more often is a gameplay issue. Some amount of trading is required to stay liquid. More trading is a burden on gameplay.
If you think that’s the best I have done, never mind can do, I have no interest in continuing the discussion. Take whatever last swipe assuages your ego and have a great day.
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It’s about skill and ISK. Obviously ISK and logistics matter, especially in large-scale warfare. But skill matters most when those things are equal. If you bring a HAC and I bring a HAC it’s primarily skill. If you downgrade to a T1 cruiser to save ISK I win unless I’m at a massive skill disadvantage. This creates massive pressure to keep paying even if prices go up, making demand in EVE relatively inelastic.
There’s always a lag between price inflation and wage inflation.
In the real world there is. In EVE, much less so. There are no wages outside of NPC bounties/rewards, miners get paid by the direct market sale of their goods instead of by an employer. There is no company bureaucracy that has to decide to increase wages (or not) before income can catch up to price inflation.
(This does, of course, mean that PvE farming gets nerfed but this is a feature not a bug.)
So cash doesn’t get hurt with inflation? Another interesting point of view.
Obviously cash gets hurt but cash is much less relevant in EVE. Cash is purely a medium of exchange, not an investment, and there’s no real need to have more cash than is required to cover your upcoming expenses. You don’t have the EVE equivalent of, say, $50k cash saved in a college fund for your kids that is now only worth $500 because of inflation.
Not at all. I never said nobody in high sec AFK mined. You claimed everyone did. Said claim being demonstrably false.
Again you ignore the difference between “effectively AFK” and “literally not even in the same room as your PC”.
And having to do tasks you don’t enjoy more often is a gameplay issue. Some amount of trading is required to stay liquid. More trading is a burden on gameplay.
Nonsense. Not getting to maintain an unhealthy play style is not a gameplay issue. Having to engage in more trading is a good thing even if some people don’t want to do it, just like having to earn your ships is a good thing even if some people would prefer to be given free ships to replace every loss.
Take whatever last swipe assuages your ego and have a great day.
Don’t worry, you’ll be back just like all of the other times in this thread that you’ve claimed to be posting your last word and made a smug comment about “take whatever last swipe”.
Interwebs TL;DR wars!
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pffft ive seen that kinda of whining for years before any Trig stuff got added.
If someone is AFK mining, they are playing wrong and should seek something else to do and not whine when some one comes and scoops the rocks out from under them. (think you could agree with that?)
now as to only HS, nah your wrong on that, they AFK in null just as much.
And now we start to have data.
Price of trit since the announcement of this change is up about 15%. Price of veld is up about 4%.
Sure doesn’t seem like a good deal for miners.
cerlestes has still the old mineral values of the ores 
at the moment mining is really not worth the time…
I’m not looking at the mineral values but at the relative inflation between ore and minerals (aka stuff).
Since ore is minerals…
In a completely nonsensical way. Nobody is selling veldspar and buying tritanium.
Ore is not minerals…minerals come from ore.