Response to all the "anti-solo" players out there

[Kezrai_Charzai]

Yes, a lot of people interpret “EVE is a sandbox” to mean “my playstyle is EVE, and your playstyle is trash”.

As far as what the game supports or doesn’t support, everyone points to a different claim or ad or video from some time in the past 16 years and says “See, this is what EVE is intended for and always has been!”.

Regardless of personal bias, all these opinions and stances on ‘what makes EVE great’ are essentially a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. EVE is a game, and it is a business. It exists in the MMO mixed PVE/PVP sci-fi genre. Games in those niches follow a certain design pattern. That design pattern has been tested, analyzed and reviewed for well over 20 years now.

• If your game doesn’t support interesting solo play, you lose about 50% of your audience.
• If your game doesn’t support viable PvE, you lose about 50% of your audience.
• If your game doesn’t have an interesting, viable, engaging NPE/onboarding experience, you lose at least 90% of your new signups.
• If your game allows new player ganking/griefing/PKing by more experienced players, you’ll lose about 30% of your players from that.
• If your game requires team/group/corp support, or multiple accounts and multi-boxing to reach ‘end game’ play, then you lose 30-50% of your potential end-game players.
• If your game is sci-fi you’ve already lost 40% of your potential player base vs. fantasy MMOs.

(Numbers are just examples, not meant to be individually accurate and verifiable.)

These and various other market realities apply, simply because of the niche the game is trying to fill. Many of the above ‘audience’ slices overlap, for instance solo players and players looking for decent PvE will have a lot of overlap.

The takeaway is that if your niche has too many overlapping “this design choice throws away X% of our potential players” features, and not enough “this design choice retains players” features… then you end up with a game that loses population rapidly after the initial growth phase.

EVE has spent too long trying to force players into various specific playstyles that CCP thinks bring in the most money, and nowhere near enough effort making the game appealing to more players - PVE and PVP styles both.

[Zirconium_Solkaze]

I like eve because of how it feels.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

According to that EVE lost 400% of it’s audience every year for 16 years.

Or…

…a river flows through EVE, it is called The River Fodder. In The River Fodder swim PvE players who, in spite of all indications otherwise, insist EVE is for PvE. They play EVE and provide loads of fun as Fodder, then they figure it out and return to the river. But not to worry, the fish in The River Fodder are plentiful.

[Shaka_Kaun_Achasse]

LMAO… Come on people… lighten up a little. By definition a “Game” is a contest between two or more antagonists - be that PvP or PvE. Since this game consists of elements catering to each it would be safe to assume that it was designed to accommodate both play styles as well as highly diversified blends of each. I’ve only been playing this game on and off for a couple years but it appears that a lot of newbies start off as PvE players (my self included), and transition into a blend of PvP / PvE as their skill or interests dictate.

Personally, I like to PvE and dabble in PvP should someone take interest in what I am doing and decide to test my PvP abilities. As such, I solo a lot while exploring the EVE universe in PvE mode but have an equal amount of fun flying in PvP fleets (both large and small), defending corporate assets, and humbling attacking war decs should the occasion present itself and rl provide the time necessary to participate. Besides enjoying solo play, rl time constraints make it difficult to allocate dedicated time slots required for group play - something towards which solo play is much more flexible.

I’m saying all this just to say: Don’t hate on those who don’t play like you do - and - don’t think you can’t have fun in a game where the cards are stacked against you.

This is a GAME people… Its purpose is to provide entertainment (and make a profit - lol), so play the game and have fun - or find something else to do for entertainment that allows you to do so.

[Xeux]

@Tintallei_Sharan

…goals that have no value, they might make you happy, but they don’t matter.

All meaning is meaningless.

[Shaka_Kaun_Achasse]

lol - sometimes the fodder has bigger teeth than the fisherman

[Xeux]

I think Goonswarm came out of that same river.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

Wow, that was quite an op, seemed like a positive note for solo play until this:

@Tak_Goden

Importantly though,

–> solo players should not demand or expect the devs to cater the game to solo play styles, especially at the expense of group play styles. <–

While I don’t disagree with that, the opposite of that is also just as valid, especially since there’s a lot of content that was expressly created for solo game play.

[Xeux]

The OP added that to try to calm some of the flames.

[Commander_Kane]

As Kane… I fully support the rise of solo gameplay… me (and my alts).

[Zercix]

@Tintallei_Sharan

If you want to ever do something RELEVANT, and by that, I mean something that will one day make you have at least a little influence that would be visible and tangible for other members of the playerbase, group play is necessary.

I sort of disagree, but will concede that any solo player that wants to make a noticeable impact has to take a lot more time to make the same impact a group could create in a fraction of the time.

But at the end of the day, not every pilot in EvE needs to have a great impact, their mere presence still helps to drive the games natural content…conflict

[DeMichael_Crimson]

I disagree completely with what Tintallei Sharan said.

There’s lot’s of players who’s actions have left a very noticeable impact upon the game.

For example, all the players who created guides and apps for Eve. Their legacy lives on long after they themselves have left the game.

[Verlyn]

HG Askelpians.

Cruiser or BC

Pick your “outnumbered” solo fights carefully.

Don’t expect to survive each fight but at least optimize on taking down as many targets as possible before the inevitable.

Save your pod.

Have fun !

[Commander_Kane]

@Tintallei_Sharan

If you want to ever do something RELEVANT, and by that, I mean something that will one day make you have at least a little influence that would be visible and tangible for other members of the playerbase, group play is necessary.

WRONG!!!

[Astutemaximus_Nardieu]

I am part of a small wh corp but I have to hunt solo as they are experienced players and aren’t really interested in that now. Solo PvP is challenging as you’re limited to your targets and you’re prone to being baited but it’s not impossible. My KB is proof of that

Edit: I am pretty sure most Corps would take me with that KB

[z0ra_Berg]

And the point of the thread is to change society as a whole, to be more accepting of solo players? Are you the one voice who will bring change? Or why do you even bother?

[Kezrai_Charzai]

@Tintallei_Sharan

I mean, it’s fine, it’s possible that you don’t care about having an influence on anything. But the ultimate goal of the gameplay as a whole is technically to make you a part of an everchanging world/map, and that does require some amount of group play.

@Tintallei_Sharan

And I believe the intent of the game design is closer to my vision than yours, which would lead to the answer that, yes, according to how the game is originally supposed to be played, they are doing it “wrong”.

Simply and plainly wrong.

“Sandbox” games don’t have an intended ‘way to play’. They aren’t about making an ‘ultimate goal’ or directing you to a specific playstyle as the end game.

A sandbox game is about putting tools and mechanisms in place, and letting players go about setting their own goals and their own ways of actualizing them.

Most of the “farmers are trash”, “gankers are trash”, “nullsec are trash” types don’t have a clue about workable game design. They just like to argue on the internet as a way of feeling relevant, so they take positions they know people will argue with. (Not saying Tintallei’s post was like that, it was a good post representing that specific viewpoint.)

A viable mixed PvE/PvP MMO has to support solo and group play, short and long range strategies, PvE and PvP, empire building and empire dismantling, and various levels of small-to-mid scale combat. Because of EVE’s design specifically, it also has to support mid-to-epic level combat, which adds to the design complexity.

Unfortunately, CCP has spent 10 years trying to do exactly what @Tintallei_Sharan says: make an ‘intended’ playstyle and an ‘intended’ end-game. Because they saw that people who played to those goals paid them the most money, they tried to chase the money instead of chasing proper game design and letting the money come as a result of having a great game.

When you try to force your sandbox gaming audience into a shoebox because you think they will pay you a lot of money for shoes, you lose your sandbox, you lose your audience, and you lose your money.

[Ket_Ama_Kel]

I’ve been playing EVE off and on for several years now, mostly solo, but joined corps now and then. Don’t particularly like groups, in the game or in real life. Don’t like having a boss or being one. I have worked with teams in the real world and enjoyed it very much. There was no boss per say, just a bunch of guys who knew their jobs and liked a lot. Haven’t found it yet in Eve, and don’t want to join every corps in the game to find one. I’d rather spend my time playing the game.
I have learned to survive in the game, even running gate camps. You need to be sneaky and clever. There is a certain satisfaction to getting your ore to market while the entire Galaxy is out to get you.
I find PVP isn’t the only obstacle. Some PVE is also overwhelming. I’ve been podded by a few of the IA. I find that kind of play requires throwing all my ISK into buying “better” ships and tank. Usually lose all the equipment and end up penniless.
Anyway, I’ve accepted that avoiding getting anihilated is life in EVE. Get used to getting hammered by just about everybody and everything. If you don’t want to kill everything that moves but would rather explore, mine etc, you need to deal with it or quit. I got this way several times until I learned to accept the facts. I stopped worrying about loosing billions in ships and getting nuked. It’s only a game after all. The money is fake, for one, so you aren’t really losing anything. Your player is immortal, and under the newer rules you don’t lose everything when you get podded. Again you don’t really lose anything.
I am not currently playing, but the game keeps “calling to me”. I’ll probably start playing again. Overall I have grown to like the game despite the gangs of killers roaming the stars. Maybe I’m a sadist
Just my $0.02 ISK

[Tintallei_Sharan]

@DeMichael_Crimson

I disagree completely with what Tintallei Sharan said.

There’s lot’s of players who’s actions have left a very noticeable impact upon the game.

For example, all the players who created guides and apps for Eve. Their legacy lives on long after they themselves have left the game.

I don’t really understand why your point should be opposed to mine and why it makes you disagree with me?

What you describe isn’t related to this players being solo or group players…

@Commander_Kane

WRONG!!!

Why?

@Gowa_Hyasyoda

You are comparing to the intended goals in the game of playing together and sharing common goals but that cannot discount the efforts of the individual or the value of what they achieve for themselves just because they are not recognized or shared with others.

This is the part where I think we will have to “agree to disagree”, I personnally believe that something that you are the only one to recognize is definitelly meaningless.

@Gowa_Hyasyoda

They have value to those players themselves and at the end of the day that is enough for the solo player.

Yep, true. If this is how they enjoy the game, that’s fine. I do think it is meaningless but I also think that sometimes being meaningless is not a big deal.

That’s the difference between what is “intended” and what matter.

@Zercix

I sort of disagree, but will concede that any solo player that wants to make a noticeable impact has to take a lot more time to make the same impact a group could create in a fraction of the time.

Well, the “impact” that we can see and acknowledge in the context of EvE is mostly about various form of territory control: Stations in High-Sec, FW territory in Low-Sec, and SoV system in Null-Sec.

I’m not sure any solo player (and true solo, not “solo and his 40 alt brothers”) can make an actual impact on any of that, no matter the amount of time we give him.

@Zercix

But at the end of the day, not every pilot in EvE needs to have a great impact, their mere presence still helps to drive the games natural content…conflict

Indeed.

@Kezrai_Charzai

Simply and plainly wrong.

“Sandbox” games don’t have an intended ‘way to play’. They aren’t about making an ‘ultimate goal’ or directing you to a specific playstyle as the end game.

“Sandbox” for a game is mostly just a marketing word IMO.

The only true “sandbox” that can exist is your imagination, once you try to materialize something, there is no sandbox anymore, you have to follow a set of rules. And it’s even worse if somebody else materialized it for you.

@Kezrai_Charzai

A sandbox game is about putting tools and mechanisms in place, and letting players go about setting their own goals and their own ways of actualizing them.

And that’s the problem. You have no choice but to be limited by those same tools and mechanisms, that have been made with a certain idea in mind and therefore with one (or severals) intended results.

You’re always dependent of the context and what the creators of those tools had in mind. They can potentially have set several different goals, with more or less pressure applied on the playerbase to follow them, but a complet liberty and “no goal at all”, to me is not possible when your imagination start to have the need to actually exist.

@Kezrai_Charzai

Unfortunately, CCP has spent 10 years trying to do exactly what @Tintallei_Sharan says: make an ‘intended’ playstyle and an ‘intended’ end-game.

Well, I can’t know for this part, I didn’t play the game 10 years ago.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

@Tintallei_Sharan

@DeMichael_Crimson

I disagree completely with what Tintallei Sharan said.

There’s lot’s of players who’s actions have left a very noticeable impact upon the game.

For example, all the players who created guides and apps for Eve. Their legacy lives on long after they themselves have left the game.

I don’t really understand why your point should be opposed to mine and why it makes you disagree with me?

What you describe isn’t related to this players being solo or group players…

@Tintallei_Sharan

If you want to ever do something RELEVANT, and by that, I mean something that will one day make you have at least a little influence that would be visible and tangible for other members of the playerbase, group play is necessary.

What I described is definitely related to what you posted and if you can’t see that, then you’re just a biased PvP player who thinks everybody should play the game like how you play it.

I noticed you started posting in the forums right after being cloned and have claimed to be a new player. However all of your replies here in the forums have a very biased and set viewpoint about the game. That tells me you’re just an alt character of an older regular forum poster who’s trying to meta-game these forums by adding another voice to their bandwagon.