Revisiting Highsec Wardecs

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
81

A limited engagement is fine if that’s what CCP would settle for and find a way to extend the LE to the corp / alliance that owns the structure. I think a suspect timer makes things more interesting where someone can be the local sheriff and fend off the freeloading suspects. Going suspect is a risk, unlike sitting in a swarm of Orcas freeloading off of someone else’s Athanor.

Yes it was fun because back then I did this solo and then later with a very small group. I’d kill them and then attempt to extort isk / assets out of them. Is there something wrong with that? In today’s Eve Online wars are opt-in, so if you don’t want to be subjected to that at all then you don’t have to.

Do you favor the way it is now where you can be a freeloader at no risk / consequence outside being ganked? It sure sounds like you enjoy being a freeloader… Just a hunch.

1 Like
82

More efficient ore refines?

They are Refineries after all.

Not going for sarcasm here, but if you aren’t mining enough ore that the fuel costs of a refinery are offset by the extra minerals you gain from the more efficient refines, maybe you should be looking at whether using a refinery is really a cost-effective option for you.

Along those lines, if you can’t muster a mining fleet to quickly mine an ore drop once it spawns, maybe you should be looking at whether a refinery is a cost-effective option for you. (Also, make sure that you set the times and sizes of your spawns to coincide with when you can mine the most efficiently.)

1 Like
83

thank you for correcting me . you recall the old mechanic did apply to an entire corp . this would eliminate what some see as the problem of one-man holding corps , as you’d need more than one pilot to protect the ore . and there’d be no risk free , free ride for structure owners .

which is exactly what suspect baiting would give structure owners . thanks for that . fly safe all .

84

IOW, “your idea only works for the kind of players we want to have in EVE, it doesn’t work for risk-averse farmers who hate PvP and don’t belong in EVE”. People like that quitting is a feature, not a bug, and nothing is really lost since they do their absolute best to avoid providing content anyway.

1 Like
85

No, it wouldn’t. Suspect flag would still require the structure owners to actually fight for the ore, and it would prevent them hiding all their miners in a wardec free corp as well the way that is being discussed here.
I really don’t understand how you can remotely see that as a freeloader.

86

So you can see if it is safe to undock?

Want to own something?

Go to sov null and take it.

As long as you are in high sec, aka the kiddie pool, you have to share with others.

87

Wtf are you even on about?
Your posts literally have nothing to do with the topic.

88

To which I replied:

Not obvious enough for you?

89

Ah right, you are just fapping about how null is the best, and ignoring that other areas also need work, gotcha. Have a nice day.

90

Did you understand what I typed? There’s an issue with how locator agents function and return results. Locate someone that says they are in a station and it’ll tell you they are in a station. You run a locate on someone in a citadel and the locator agent tells you they are in space… which is incorrect.

Ah I see what happened. You quoted the wrong part of one of my posts. You were replying to moon chunk ownership and not the locator agent part. No it wasn’t obvious, your posting was confusing.

—-

To address your “Nullsec or GTFO“ attitude… why shouldn’t players get to have a stake in things in Highsec? When we anchored a POS in Highsec we had to have starbase charters. Why couldn’t empire space rent out their moons to someone wanting to harvest it?

Not everyone wants to play in CCPs cancer ridden and stagnant capital ship playground.

1 Like
91

Quote me on that??

92

This cuts both ways though. As someone who formerly used locator agents to hunt targets (before the era of Upwell structures), being able to differentiate between whether a potential target was in space or docked was kind of a big deal.

Plus…using a locator agent to see if someone in the same system as you is in space or not seems woefully inefficient to the point that I wouldn’t consider it an issue. It takes ISK and time whereas simply undocking in a corvette accomplishes the same thing instantly. So long as you’re not in a kick-out station or have an insta-undock bookmark, you’ll be just as safe.

(And if you didn’t do either of those things, well then you deserve to get blown up.)

93

suspect flag would let anyone protect the ore , free of charge and even when the structure owners aren’t online . they also want the flagging set by an ACL , allowing out-of-corp , war dec free corp access .
LE does not solve the issue of war dec free OOC miners hired or allowed by the owner to mine but that only affects players that want to shoot suspect-flagged mining ships … :stuck_out_tongue:
LE does require the owner to be online and actively defend their ore , risk ships and lost productivity , and allows ninja mining if they’re offline or unwilling to fight for the ore .

94

Nothing needs to be done, it is high sec and NO ONE OWNS SPACE.

We have been thought this 1000 times, people who say they own a Relic Site, Data Site, Asteroid Belt, Mission Deadspace.

And on and on and on.

High sec is all shared resources.

If OPs corp wants to own something, there is a place in game SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT called SOV NULL.

1 Like
95

I’m not calling for CCP to fundamentally change how stuff like combat and exploration sites work in Highsec. This is completely different in that you are puttin an Athanor on a moon.

Why is it unreasonable that an Athanor require starbase charters or some other kind of tax to the empire factions as a rental agreement for the moon and its resources?

I’ve already explained before some of Nullsecs problems and why plenty of people want to have nothing to do with it. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being able to “rent” a moon and it’s resources from any of the 4 empire factions.

Sure but I fail to see the issue. If I’m some random dude, I’m not going to go around patrolling Highsec moons making sure freeloaders stay punished… at least not for free or for anyone else’s benefit.

The possibilities for content with this are immense. I can totally picture running a mining corp that goes around mining other people’s Athanor fields and fighting back when someone tries to punish me.

I can also see myself running a mining group that pushes other ninjas off the Athanor only to ninja mine it myself.

I can totally see both of the examples above happening even simultaneously only to have the structure owner come online and fight them all off or contact their local protection agency or merc group to come and handle the situation.

Is this type of content bad? Please poke holes in this because all I’m reading is “hurr durr go to Nullsec”. Funny thing is that just the section above provides more unique experiences and meaningful content than what Nullsec has.

Tell me how often anyone outside you blue donut is pushing into your territory to harvest resources or farm anoms… No, everyone is locked in their own safety net farming separately while capitals overlook the landscape. The only threat is roaming gangs and wormholers popping out to harass farmers.

There is NO dynamic tug of war that makes Nullsec interesting… and if there was it would be capitals or bust. All you have are stupid and pointless bait / content citadels that do nothing but provide line members with some crappy narrative that leadership makes up and to entertain members.

There is room for the type of conflict as I describe to exist in Highsec. So please don’t pretend that Nullsec is where the endgame lies because that is very blatantly false.

2 Likes
96

There was once an alliance that went round ninjaing people’s missions…they were pretty infamous…but decided to stop ninja-salvaging after crimewatch and ship swapping changes and became full time gankers.

I don’t really know how you expect the fighting back part to go. Perhaps swapping using a bowhead?

What about people that aren’t you?

You’re doing to ninja miners what has happened to wardecs. Raising the bar such that only a few can do it. You’re doing it FOR the baiting, but what about people who ninja mine for the minerals? Will it be worth it for them?

And some food for thought:

  • Gankers used ship swapping for Hyper-dunking. Ccp stopped it.
  • Ninjas used ship swapping as well so ccp made it that you can’t swap ships with a weapons timer.

So if the plan is to use ship swapping out of a barge into a combat ship after being attacked, i can see a nerf before you’ve even started.

97

Swapping out of a Bowhead is an option currently but I wouldn’t promote this change around a gimmick like that.

Hyperdunking was VERY different than Suspect baiting and swapping ships out of a Bowhead. I was one of the few people Hyperdunking back then and there’s no comparison between the two uses. CCP nerfed Hyperdunking I believe for a few reasons:

  • We were making it the meta. There were a handful of people doing this, but my partner and I for 3 months during the height of our Hyperdunking activity accounted for 75% of ALL freighter ganks in Highsec. This was while Miniluv and Loyalanon were ganking as well… we Hyperdunked A LOT!

  • We bypassed the need to tag up once our sec status hit -2.5.

  • We were trivializing the point of the Criminal timer. Our ships were destroyed every time but we didn’t have to suffer the 15 minute “timeout” that other criminals had to face.

All that said I felt like it was fun (for me) and there was plenty of counter play. The reason it seemed so bad was because there was and is an excess of absolutely terrible players that are bad at Eve and like to haul. All it took was a single osprey or a single thrasher to stop the Hyperdunk.

I don’t agree really. Wars are all N+1 right now because that’s all there is to do to win the objective (kill / defend the structure). Pirat is an exception in that other than Wrecking Machine there aren’t any other Highsec groups bringing the numbers we bring on structure kills… we bring what we bring to ensure we complete the objective.

When doing our day to day we are still a formidable force but you see groups bait us almost daily. Sometimes (rarely) there’s a good slugfest that comes out of it.

If you are suggesting that a group the size of Pirat is going to go around Suspect baiting and killing suspects on structures, Id have to disagree. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with an activity being won by the most skilled, most prepared, or the group that is more dominant.

Most definitely it would be worth it for them. They can assert their dominance and have the spoils, but still under constant threat of being contested and pushed off. A change like this rewards the carebear with teeth - not the lazy, afk, and incompetent.

I’m also not suggesting that it’s going to be a meta of pvp-fit mining barges. There are clever ways that a prepared and knowledgeable player can fight to win.

98

Us “Hey lets change highsec to promote combat in certain areas and make corporations have a point”
Daichi & others “LOL NO! BECAUSE NULL”
Also Daichi & Others. “Why are highsec players such carebears”

99

The spoils aren’t worth that much though.

If I’m mining for the minerals rather than trying to ninja/bait with fits built for that (or warping in and out), i can get nearly as much value from anoms and normal belts with a full on mining fleet semi-afk.

There’s also not really any dominance. You’re not going to hold the field as a suspect miner. You can’t call in support from corpies unless it’s for them to bump you out of point range…

Trust me. Like what suspect did to ninja salvaging, activity in this area will just go to near zero. And that’s what i don’t want because it plays into the hands of athanor owners. The only real contest is via wardec which is now beyond most players.

@Nevyn_Auscent
So salty bro.

100

These are fundamental flaws with Highsec and more specifically the game and it’s risk / reward structure. It ought to look like this:

  • [0.0] Moon Mining
  • [0.0] Belt Mining
  • [Wormholes (C5-C1 progressive decrease risk/reward)] Moon / Anom Mining
  • [Lowsec] Moon Mining
  • [Lowsec] Belt / Anom Mining
  • [Highsec] Moon Mining
  • [Highsec] Belt / Anom mining

However CCP needs to properly adjust this in terms of efficiency, npc pirate spawn (differing size / type / scram or not / and frequency (random is best imo)) is up to them. I’m not an industrialist, so there’s going to be activities you can shove between there, but the point I’m trying to make is laid out above. In Highsec, it ought to be worth wanting and needing a structure so that there’s a carrot on the stick to draw players into the next levels of content. If everyone always stays in the shallow end, there’s not slowly and steadily getting used to deeper and darker waters.

So yeah, if Moon Mining isn’t worth it (I wouldn’t know, honestly) then that’s a glaring flaw on CCP’s part that needs to be fixed.

So I see your argument and understand it well enough to know that if there are people around to attack you, being suspect is a disadvantage. So the goal would be to have a system that’s not overly complicated and provides opportunity for conflict and interaction…

Lets go with a different approach…

Athanor Owner (A) is at war with Athanor Owner (B). Athanor Owner (B) is a holding corp and has a different primary corp to house all its members. If anyone from another corp or an NPC corp harvests from an Athanor, they will be subject to legal combat from Athanor Owner (A).

If someone that isn’t on the ACL for Athanor Owner (A) and thus doesn’t have permission, they inherit a Limited Engagement timer.

What this does is gets rid of the suspect timer that limits how and when players can interact, and makes it where if Corp (B) doesn’t want to keep it’s members vulnerable to war 24/7 by keeping them in-house, then they are at least vulnerable while they are harvesting the moon chunk.

So a few adaptations that I see players from Corp (B) doing is… just not harvesting the moon in fear of having to actually face the wardec. They instead choose to mine belts and anoms, which is fine. They can take a hit in efficiency for the decreased risk.

I don’t believe that the death of can flipping was the death of suspect baiting. Sure some people stopped because they liked being isolated into combat with that individual they chose, and now are open to aggression from everyone… but I suspect baited a lot back in the day.

Back around 2013-2014 I was suspect baiting mission runners and what I saw firsthand was not that CCP killed this activity, but rather:

  • Pilots became more aware of these shenanigans
  • Fewer people running missions than before
  • A lot of time invested for minimal reward (often spent hours and hours trying to get someone to attack you)

What do you mean by this? In what way are wardecs beyond most players? Sure not everyone can instantly form a corp and do what Pirat, Wrecking Machine, and Hell Dawn do… but all it takes is a handful of pilots putting out 5k DPS to hit damage cap on medium-sized Upwell structures. This is not difficult whatsoever.

Clearing and killing Athanors isn’t the problem. The problem is that you can clear and kill them all day long, but putting your own won’t do any good because of freeloaders with minimal risk.