Salvation Renewed

The world’s a complex place, pilot.

The Mandate’s not small, but it’s particularly “of its kind?”

“Its kind” mostly being Nefantar, with a strong flavor of Ardishapur. At least as I understand it.

Not all (or most) Amarrian believers are that specific kind of orthodox.

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Huh. Well, that’s my mom’s tribe, can’t be too bad :grinning:

As with most things, it seems to depend on your point of view.

But, by and large, no, not too bad.

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It’s certainly not something I’d call you dense over, but the question illustrates a certain misunderstanding. Until and unless the Republic annuls the Right of Return, from a legal perspective the Minmatar Republic is a proper place for Minmatar faithful.

Some of those who practice the Rite took up their citizenship by right of return as adults, others had as I did that right taken up for them as children, and still others were born Republic citizens and learned the Rite from their parents.

I cannot even begin to estimate the numbers of faithful in the Republic, by necessity many are rather circumspect about their beliefs; I am all but certain though that we are far too numerous to make exporting us all to the Mandate practical.

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It also depends on how you define “Faithful”. There are many people in the Republic, I believe, who believe in your God, but in ways that would be heretical in the Empire.

Just to name some examples, some Circles believe that slave-holding is a sin, as God has created no human above another. Some believe that holding slaves is a holy duty to some, but that the institute of hereditary Holders as practiced in Amarr Empire is a corruption of the original idea and in itself unholy. Some believe that God controls Fate and Voluvals are Signs from God and only Minmatar can truly be God’s. Some believe that God is entirely separate from the secular world and should only be worshiped in quiet contemplation, and that any churches in his name are an aberration.

A lot - most? - of ‘faithful’ congregations of former slaves reject the idea of Amarr as a special Empire and Amarrians as chosen people, while they still believe that God exists and is the ultimate authority on the world and worship in their own ways.

Are these people ‘faithful’? Some of them call themselves so, certainly. Still Abel Jarek’s attempt to bring them to ‘Blessed Servitude’ and ‘back to the Holy Empire of God’ met objection from many of them, too. Jarek was an extremist - not your typical faithful. In his time of preaching in the Eyniletti refugee camps he gained maybe 100 followers, total.

And then, obviously, we have the even larger numbers of people who count the Amarrian God as a god among others - the Amarr people’s spirit, equal to the Seven [translator: gods [Minmatar plural form of ‘God’], spirits, essence], but not above them. And still those who acknowledge the God as the ruler of [translator: literally “what is”, universe, existence, the material world], but hold that we can escape him as other paths exist beyond.

How far can you stray from the Amarr religion that holds that the Amarr throne is holy and not to be questioned, and the Amarr people the chosen people of God, before you are not ‘faithful’ anymore? Who gets to decide who is faithful and who is not? Can any of the above beliefs be taught on your station?

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The Empire’s really let itself go if can’t get large numbers of people out of Republic space any more!

But, like, I mean, maybe come my way instead? I’ve got no qualms about Matari wanting to be Faithful (follow your bliss!) It makes sense to do that in the Empire, or to come to the Federation, we’ve got all sorts here, but the Republic? I dunno.

Seems like a good way to have a bad time, you know?

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What constitutes “Faithful” is a discussion that never ends among theologians, and rarely starts among anyone else. Scripture is important, as is the learning of those whose lives are spent debating how best to interpret it, they are an invaluable guide when the path darkens.

I stated earlier that God gives us the tools to provide for ourselves, so I believe it to be with faith. Those who bear Him first in their thoughts, striving by the admonitions of heart and mind always to show Him their worth will be found good and holy when the time comes to knock on the gates of paradise.

A lot? Most? Some? You’re vague because you don’t know, and the truth is that I don’t either. I’m given to understand whether all people under the Rite are Amarr is a topic of some consternation among Ammatar faithful; a natural consequence I suppose of using a term both to describe an ethnicity and as a term for God’s chosen. Even if the answer is not explicitly addressed, I think we can take some cues about orthodox belief on that point by the seniority of many Khanid and Ni-Kunni faithful within the church. I believe the difference between the rejection of ethnic Amarr as a chosen people and the acceptance that irrespective of birth all faithful are Amarr is one best left to theologians.

Choosing to frame Jarek’s evangelism as you have done is disingenuous, your choice to promote the idea that practice of the Rite is rooted in temporal servitude to the Empire rather than spiritual servitude to God gives every appearance of being intended to further stir up tribal sentiment against us, and you continue very much in the same vein. To call Jarek an extremist may have been correct in a purely literal sense, but I do not believe for a second you chose the word careless of its connotations– however extreme you find the views he had, in calling the leader of a fervently non-violent movement an extremist, you make he and they something other than they were, and contribute to an illusory justification for his murder.

I’m going to try and answer your concluding questions in good faith, despite the strength of my belief that they were not asked in such.

The Empress is God’s representative among mankind, I cannot say whether God would forgive those who repudiate her spiritual authority. Only that I would. I made clear very early on that Salvation will provide succour to any in need, while I cannot in good conscience promote the propagation of heresies, and the Churches will be teaching from accepted scripture; those resident here are free to congregate and discuss anything they wish at any time of their choosing.

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That is not my idea, nor is it me who promotes it.

You skirt the issue.

Do you, or do you not, believe that the Amarr are God’s chosen people, and that in an ideal world, all should be subjugated to the Amarr Throne? Do you, or do you not, believe that the tribes who are not ‘saved’ would be better off slaves? Do you, or do you not, allow someone to preach that this is not true, on your station of ‘Salvation’?

You were promoting precisely that idea, and I do not believe you ignorant enough to have been doing so unintentionally.

I already touched on most of the issues you allege I skirted. If you consider the Amarr to be those of the Rite, then I do consider them to be God’s chosen, if you consider the Amarr to be those referred to as True Amarr, yes, many of them; because if I consider God’s favour to be born of faith, and I do, how can I consider faithful of whatever people to be otherwise?

In an ideal world the faith would bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens, and in that world, everyone would choose to take that message to heart. My belief is that the responsibility of the faithful ends at bringing the message, whether those who listen give their servitude to God is between they and He.

Having been a slave, and living a good deal of my life thereafter among those likewise emancipated; it would depend on their situation in the Republic and the Holding to which you envisage sending them, but whether they’d be better off is frankly a material question rather than a religious one in this case.

As I already indicated anyone can proselytize to anyone who chooses to listen, but in consecrated places of worship preaching will be from scripture.

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Which Scripture? are you by chance part of the Church of St. Arzad, like many of our Starkmanir kin?

I have a certain appreciation for the Books of Missions, Trials and the Prophet Anoyia– though I have no intention of directing the Clergy in detail, I will certainly be advising a certain reserve when it comes to the Book of Reclaiming.

I am familiar with the Church of the Starkmanir Holder, and though I admire many elements of their work I cannot find in myself reverence for one who played such an outsized part in the most destructive single episode in the shared history of the Rite and the Republic.

Can you answer these questions, please?

I have, in most cases twice

Uh, could you maybe say it in a way that someone like me could understand? Gotta say, I’m lost.

Are there any particular terms you’re having difficulty with?

Heh. Let me think a bit and see if I can’t, like, narrow it down.

Her answers seem perfectly clear to me.

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And to me, you are another one who is unable to give a clear answer on the exact same questions.

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She won’t because she can’t. Any Matari that still follows the slaver faith ultimately will side with them against us. Their slavery did not end at the emancipation. She’s just as much a slave as her ancestors ever where, the only difference is that now she and her fellow ‘faithful’ are a threat to all free Matari. As a Starkmanir, and former slave my self, I am ashamed that not more of our kin have freed themselves of the lies of the our former masters.

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I think it’s less terms and more, uh. . . bigger picture. Like, you’re faithful, you respect the Holders, the Throne, etc. But not enslaving or forced conversion, you’re not sure you’d follow the Empress if she told you to fight the Republic.

So, like, when you say ‘a certain reserve’, which reserve is it? A say the quiet parts quiet kinda reserve? Or?

You’re probably smarter than me? I hope?