See his post above. Its quoted by dracvlad. Read what he said, then my questions.
It was about isk/hr in HS…which is soooo low (under 25m/hr tops) that we need to bring back wrecks and reprocessing. 
Or at least I think that’s why isk/hr in HS was brought up. Maybe its just crusading?
you read the topic again. It is about scrapmetal reprocessing. Why it was nerfed, why this skill is bad.
it’s been nerfed because “HS must not make more money lol”. BUT people who do money in HS (incursions, burners) dont collect loot anyhow.
So we are not talking about those people, because they are out of the topic.
BTW I agree that even doing only exploration in HS (be it ded sigs, anoms escalations, or sleeper/ghost sites) can net more than 100M/h. On average. But this is not the topic.
OK, so the argument on the table is: Full clearing L4s is not as profitable as it once was, therefore we need moar lewtz.
That wasn’t the op’s argument, his was psychological edification. But fine. Tell me why more loot is needed, and/or more minerals from loot, when there are so many other options which pay better?
MY argument was never this. I say : remove loot from rats instead of keeping this useless feature. and thus, remove that skill.
I agree with people that this skill is garbage, thus I think it should be removed instead of nerfed to sub garbage. Other people have different idea of what should be done.
That is true. Your idea was to get rid of reprocessing modules and scrap metal.
EDIT: Sorry, you have an even better idea. Removing loot. Now that is an idea I might crusade for (will never happen though)
OK, he explained it above, not everyone is a max it player, I had a lot of time so I did not blitz level 4 missions , just shot everything, tended to salvage and loot by coming back in and tended to do missions for agents that would not get camped so much by people wanting to have fun. I had to reject a lot of missions due to standings and that was an issue and of course even though I had two characters with standings I sometimes had to wait out missions with standings issues or location issues, it all added up. Result, I did not break 25m an hour. even when I used twin Paladins. Now the LP is the key part of all of this and at times I was after certain items for my own use, some I sold like SOE probes, probe launchers etc., but I never really found that especially great.
So in effect playing relaxed in hisec I could not break 25m an hour, at the moment where I am in nullsec playing fairly relaxed with two VNI’s I make 106m an hour. And I really don’t have to try anywhere near as hard.
The wrecks was something that added value and was quite nice, especially to those who had a third account with an Notics. Anyway, level 4 mission running is not great…
So getting back into this there is no reason at all to run a third account to salvage and gather modules for reprocessing, now of course you can just plonk down a MTU and let it do it, but as they are just shot at with no issues there is no point to even do that.
That should still be possible, only the value is in the LP instead of the loot. I have an old isk/hr spreadsheet last modified in 2010 where I was making 80m/hr+ full clearing every mission offered including couriers thanks to the 3500 isk/lp conversion rate. Some adjustments to tactics, some cherry picking, and not needing to do couriers should still be able to hit that range with the current ~2000 isk/lp from most non-navy stores.
Then there are burners where you can make double-triple that. Same goes for incursions. And then 1/4 of 75-100m/hr is lv3 money. Of course you aren’t going to make that money doing highsec exploration. But saying high sec doesn’t make crap for isk just doesn’t hold up.
Loot stopped being worth it years ago, I couldn’t say exactly when though, probably around the time they removed meta 1 items, possibly even earlier with the introduction of the LP store as there were some crazy isk/lp conversions out there. Sure there was a time after that when running a marauder and cherry picking the wrecks with loot was still good income as you could get a few meta 4 thing. And of course empire kill missions are exempt as a lot of the value is in the loot, as well as max LP payouts, wouldn’t be surprised to hear the enemies abound chain is all still over 100m/hr.
oh yea and all that manufacturing and trading going on in highsec, yea that’s some money.
except a large part of it is flat out wrong. Yes loot got gutted but that was a game wide change. Although I suppose the way they are going with rorquals gun mining doesn’t look like an issue. I can still remember the we will never make a capital mining ship CCP, oh well.
before the change you only needed it at lv1 to get 100% in a 50% station. and that’s where my alt’s had it for the last 10 years.
high bounty bs drop more/better stuff and more salvage, null anoms are packed with high bounty bs, highsec missions have crappy rats. With that much salvage coming from null of course high can’t compete. Citadels have helped some creating demand for salvage. The high sec loot/salvage hasn’t been worth it for the last 10 years.
also I don’t know detailed haven mechanics but 500m in bounties sounds like more than several sites.
yep
That’s 16. Without commander. When does it stop from being “several” ?
What an odd comment, yes it was a game wide change that had a massive impact on solo and small group play and now we have Rorquals which are larger alliance ships who can counter drop to save them. This here is the biggest example of CCP losing their way in that they made changes that screwed their casual player base, but I have Rorqual mining in major nullsec blocs to make up for it. Yes I know you did not directly say that, but step back and think about that from a game design perspective.
I told you that I was belt ratting and using the minerals to make ships in which to operate and replace losses, it was tough enough to do when the loot was acceptable, but it became impossible when they cut it in half. I regret the loss of that play style a lot, though with the explosion of major alliance mining my solo play would have become even more untenable. So where am I wrong, where am I flat out wrong, tell me because it is not obvious at all…
He’s basically saying what I said is wrong.
As for the amount of ISK I made back half a dozen yrs ago, I always did full clear but never sold all my loot nor factor in LP / ISK value. I always stockpiled meta lv 3 and higher modules along with Drone poo and all Salvage materials. The value of those items were never included as ISK per hr. Course when CCP did Module Tiericide they basically nerfed the hell out of the value of my assets but that’s a different topic.
I did the same as you, I used many of the modules in ship fitting so stored them for later use and that helped me out a lot later on.
You are not wrong, you and I ran missions like the majority of players did them, not this max blitz thing in the crowded mission hubs and all the rubbish that went with that.
Anyway, it was yet another naff decision by CCP that screwed casual players…
Agreed, also back then Incursions was more of a waiting game and definitely required high level bling ship fits, plus there was a lot more players logged into the game.
People saying you cant make much in Hisec really need to stop making this statement. Here let me modify for you, YOU cant make a lot in Hisec. This doesn’t mean others aren’t even at the activities you swear aren’t profitable.
I have made billions in the last few years, almost mostly singularly in Hisec, no not with market trading, no not with scamming, and no not at the foot of some large corporation. I mostly did the activities everyone told me were “underpaying”. Just because you have failed at an activity doesn’t mean everyone is, and telling everyone the end all be all end game is Null is just complete bull.
I have way more isk than many, many people I have met from Null, and I never go there. Don’t let others failures guide you, its best to test things out for yourself.
It’s amazing how much can actually be accrued during lvl 4 missions and yes i have scrap metal processing lvl5 and when that freighter is filled with all that useless crap as some people put it, many ships can be built from those proceeds and much isk is to be made.
The part that is wrong was about highsec incomes dropping. The loot part is right. But at the time gun mining was screwing miners. you bring it back and the people carrier ratting will drop mtus and we’ll have even crazier amounts of minerals in game. A lot of the meta loot already trades at mineral value. And the current mining economy is just so different from what it was then it’s hard to compare, with the endlessly spawning ore anoms, rorquals, and now active moon mining.
plus now instead of belt ratting you can anom rat which seems to make far more and support a higher player density than belt ratting. A lot of activities provide more income and minerals are even cheaper than they used to be I think that more than balanced out loot changes.
But hey that’s eve “Adapt or die” used to be one of the most common things posted on the forums
yea I had a lot of random stuff that also lost value, but I also saw things coming and bought out most of the angel officer BCUs and make billions re-selling them. Also picked up a lot of low value cosmos loot and that has had mixed rewards.
overall I gotta say I’m disappointed with module tiericide. It was pitched as something that would give meta items niches to be useful, yet everything seems to have been nerfed to meta 2-3 usefulness/price.
Incursions are another issue as they make a majority of agents useless thanks to the concord LP softcap on prices. A niche item might go for something like 5k isk/lp and make a subpar agent worth running, but with concord LP it’s hard to find anything over 3k. Almost always better off just going SoE and maxing lp gains. Makes missions boring.
This happened for several reasons all at once. I remember it well.
The biggest reason given by CCP back then was to give a boost to miners. Players that actually mine, but as always, they went about it the wrong way.
At the same time, the NS empires saw an opportunity to vastly increase their resources because mining is the easiest thing to multibox, bot, etc. vs combat multiboxing / botting. You don’t need to non-stop mine to build what you want in the current state of it, just activate omega on your toons for 1 month, multibox + macro or bot however many you want, then let them lapse rest of the time. So they made a huge troll / stink about how poor miners are and CCP being gullible as always bought into it hook / line / sinker.
So they nerfed what was referred to as “gun mining”. Now the game is predictably overran with multiboxers / botters and all that sort of crap as a result. Ratting bots are still there of course but not as much as mining.
What they should have done is leave the basic mining alone as it was, but give it serious boosts for active, actual gameplay instead of AFKing and automating, while slightly reducing the reprocessing and reduce loot drops significantly but upped their average quality. That way, people who wanted to AFK mine could still do so but at reduced effectiveness, while those who actively played would get greatly increased results for their effort. This would have reduced multiboxing / botting while at the same time given miners the boost which they needed and somewhat preserve extra income for combat oriented players. Instead they just made blanket nerfs and blanket boosts and then bumped NS ratting rewards to stupid out of whack proportions.
I also would like to see salvaging to be a lot more used all across, so that salvaged components are used in far more construction, especially of the bigger ships and structures, as it tends to be a bit more active gameplay then mining, often done by players right at combat sites or missions after being completed.
We are talking about loot reprocessing as part of the activity of mission running on the back of the low return on reprocessing.
I made Billions in hisec too, PI was easy for me, as was selected manufacturing, so what, the comment was about reprocessing and it drifted into mission running, as I sometimes gather stuff and reprocess it in nullsec that is easy for me to compare.
I made billions from largely hisec PI, and only a single character was topping up from low sec.
Comparison to other areas perhaps?
Well I would adjust the loot tables on belt rats, but that was just me…
So sod the casuals then…
Adapt or die applied to casual players, how wonderful and short sighted and not very good for player retention, but say that if it helps… Personally I regret seeing so many casual players leave the game.
Good idea, it makes little difference to the overall amount to be honest, but to those that wanted to add a bit to low level play it helps a lot.
double the scrap metal processing skill bonus to 4% per level for a maximum possible reprocessing efficiency of 60% and call it a day. thank you in advance CCP devs.
gimme 5T and call it a day. thank you in advance.