welp now I know were you are from
What proof do you have that it would only create a short-term rise?
I donât see it as âwatering downâ.
@Qia_Kare
You see a difference, I donât in the arguments of the gankers. I see PvP as something that is built into every mechanic, it doesnât just mean killing ships, itâs in everything. Gankers pretend that stopping them from farming easy kills in highsec is the complete removal of PvP.
Itâs important that EVE attracts people to the PvE playstyles and continuing to reduce reward and increase risk to satisfy a small number of people who oppose the existence of PvE is not a good way to do that. Itâs weird that you claim to have quit over tiny changes, but you criticise people for not wanting to pay a sub to do low reward PvE while being griefed by PvP players too scared to go hunting players that are equipped to fight back.
You havenât quit though, thatâs why youâre still here.
Yes, it does outline more than just fundamental principles. My question is why it is that fundamental principles are what you p[ick out as things you like, but anything youâre find with changes isnât a fundamental principle?
So not a single fundamental/core principle has changed since 2003? So when they created a form of instanced PvE, that wasnât a change to a core principle? Is it then safe to assume that if they introduce further instanced PvE that also wonât be a change to a core principle?
In my opinion the ability to buy skills for cash is a far greater change to core principles of EVE than the removal of the ability for griefers to farm players in highsec.
@Xeux
Why is a forum post discussing the capitalisation of EVE and falsely claiming itâs an acronym relevant?
Attaching emotion to the game design principles is kind of irrational and irrelevant in my view.
Aside from that, it isnât all that hard to see what are core principles of the game versus the mechanics implementing them.
IDK why we still bother replying to people that simply wonât listen and keep trying to play the âyâall are hypocritesâ angle since theyâre out of arguments.
Someone posted the Newbie FAQ that said a core principle in Eve Online is âPVP anywhere in an open sandboxâ.
Additionally, CCPâs official resources for new players and specifically for the Industrialist Career path explicitly mention the threat of ganking as something requiring learning to defend against:
Getting started in Industry, similar to any other profession, will require ships to undock with. Your starting Venture available through the Career Agents can be a good option at first, though you may soon find yourself wanting to upgrade to a Mining Barge to mine ore much faster. You can easily visualize this pathway on the in-game Ship Tree. Fitting your mining ships with a shield tank may also help keep you safe from roaming NPC pirates or other players trying to blast through your hull before CONCORD can arrive to save your ship. The same holds true for any industrial hauler that you might use; some players may attempt to quickly kill you for your expensive cargo, despite losing their own ship in the process. New Eden can be harsh, but that doesnât mean you shouldnât be prepared.
Sure seems like CCP Games officially considers highsec ganking as a core principle, to me, as itâs worthy enough to educate newbies about in official resources â instead of, yâknow, setting all safeties perma-green in high sec.
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"But the writing on his door is the wrong way around so this doesnt count as an affective allegory.
Prove otherwise."
There we go, another fine addition to the convo. We dont even need to listen to Scott, thats pretty much a Scottism there.
Iâm not attaching emotion, Iâm pointing out that what you consider to be a core principle is subjective. Itâs a common theme that people who support ganking will claim that no changes can be made because of âcore design principlesâ even though EVE now barely resembles EVE at launch because so much of the core design has changed. Itâs just an excuse to reject change.
Other people can say what they want to say. I donât want to argue their points for them. As mentioned, Iâm not a ganker. I donât do it, and I donât like having it done to me, or being impeded by people hunting me when I want to do other things. These are the proverbial vegetables that I donât want to eat. Iâd rather get my cookies, at least in that moment.
Like eating vegetables, the good part isnât apparent at the time of the act. The good arises later, slowly and organically. Good is relative, so when I say âgoodâ I mean things that I personally think are beneficial. Primarily in my case, being shot at prompts people to interact and seek some kind of defense once they become aware that they need one. Iâve had a lot of pleasant experiences helping someone who just got blown up to get back on their feet, or collaborating with other corporations and people on mutual defense.
Back in the days when wardecs were cheap and gatecamps abound, weâd all chat each other up at random and try to punch through those camps or stick it to the wardeccers. Back then it was not uncommon for the entire aggressing corporation to be just one person who was relatively new, and a challenge we might be able to overcome. Fighting was cheap enough anybody could afford it so the stakes were relatively low. Weâd lose some stuff, weâd replace it, rinse and repeat. This whole focus on progression and spending god knows how long getting ready for âreal pvpâ did not exist. The insurmountable pain of losing a half million isk ship today was not a big thing back then, and I donât understand why it is now.
By comparison, the Eve that keeps drifting toward safety has hardly anyone saying anything in local. People show up expecting to be left alone, and it shows. I donât have Eve installed anywhere, but if you want to call posting in the forums âplayingâ go ahead. Where once people took to space to settle their differences, now they take to the forums. All the spurious interaction that made Eve interesting to me is now here, and whatâs left isnât as interesting to me as it used to be.
CCP is now on record calling it âgriefingâ to shoot someone if youâre not making money off the kill, and that is, I think, the worst thing to come out of this update. This isnât about mechanics of tether or docking, itâs about how the gameâs philosophy has bent to justify the views of people unable to cope with even a small setback.
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In some cases being shot encourages people to interact. But there has to be a reason beyond ânot getting shotâ. Highsec PvE has already been heavily nerfed and itâs becoming increasingly clear that when people are being shot many are just packing it in.
This is a game. People play it for entertainment. To most people being blown up by a veteran players while they try to chill out in a âsafeâ area is not entertaining. The ganker answer to this is that casual players can go play something else, but CCPs problem is that people are in fact choosing to go play something else. And all for what? So a small number of veterans can take a break from their nullsec alts to shoot easy targets in highsec?
Itâs good that you would try to break camps or fight wardeccers, but thatâs you choosing to engage in PvP. Thatâs not you choosing to shoot a rock or some red triangles then having someone show up and force their playstyle onto you.
Youâre surprised people donât talk in local? Beside the playerbase being much smaller, you support a system that can forces people into combat at any time, ensure they have to fit inefficient ships to avoid being a target and have to stay 100% focussed on the task at hand. The reason it used to be better is because it used to be far easier to casually play without these worries because ganking without profit as a motivation was less common. As for settling differences, you canât settle differences with a faceless alt of a null player.
It is griefing, thatâs why itâs done. Gankers are seeking a response from the gankee and they push them for it. Thatâs why gankers contact gankees afterwards and try to wind them up. We all know this, itâs common knowledge and has been widely discussed. It was even on a podcast a few weeks back where they were mocking a ganker who claimed repeatedly saying âcalm downâ wasnât an attempt to provoke a response.
Iâm just going to say, point blank, I donât want to play the game you want to play. Give me unlimited lives and corvettes and I can do almost anything. Give me a game with people in it who feel the same way and weâre in business, other than that, Iâm going to take a pass.
Where are your qualifications?
If you tolerate this forum bait trolls will be next.
Thatâs whatâs great about a sandbox with multiple distinct areas though right? It can be different games to different people. Unfortunately the deathmatch PvP folks seem to just want combat everywhere and everything else to play second fiddle.
My opinion, not that you care for it, was that highsec was a place for low cost low stakes PvP and that lower security areas are for progressively higher stakes. If players donât get used to loss when they have little to lose, it only gets harder when they have a lot to lose. The longer you protect them from losing, the more fearful they become of the inevitability of their first loss. I donât think sectioning off the sandbox for those people who canât tolerate a loss early when they have nothing of value creates a social environment I want to inhabit. It may be fun for some to progress mindlessly and without opposition, but not for me.
Note that Iâm not saying anything about what CCP should do. I do not have access to the actual numbers or financial status to make decisions for them. What I can do is make decisions for myself and I decided this game, as it now stands, is too monotonous for my taste. Nothing against people who enjoy that, but Iâm taking my own advice. If I do not like a game, instead of trying to change it Iâll just go do something else.
I still find some occasional gems in the forum, though, so I do still like to read it when I have short windows of spare time.
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And yetâŚconsistently on a daily basis it is NPC piratesâŚPvEâŚthat destroys the largest proportion of your oh so precious noob ships in highsec. A fact anyone can check for themselves yet the anti PvP community just ignore.
Not only that, but the vast majority of noob level PvE involves no interaction with other players at all. You donât need an MMO in order to rat an asteroid belt. You donât need an MMO in order to do combat anomalies. And so on for large areas of PvE. What the hell is the point of players enduring lag and low reward PvE all on their ownâŚpretending they are in a Massive Multiplayer game ? And you wonder why noobs get bored of the charade and go off and play single player Homeworld instead ?
Why are people whose only goal is this boring, single player style, PvE even in a multipler game ? Your ideal Eve might as well be handed out to people on CDs and require no internet connection !
Thatâs funny. I know someone else on these forums that believes all gankers have nullsec alts and that the game should be played AFK. You are giving yourself away again.
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Io, just stop with all that icky logic and those gross sources to back up your argument.
Itâs absolutely clear that EvE (Everybody verses Everyone) is an open sandbox where there should be absolutely no PvP, threats of loss and nothing but easy gains because thatâs what I feel like it should be.
And if you disagree with me and use all that yucky logic fact stuff to counter, youâre just a ganking hypocrite that doesnât care about the noob (a.k.a. The billionaire isk freighter and blingy marauder pilots) or the well being and future of this game.
You really should just biomass because you lost the argument.
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How would DefiNatalie NotLucas know how the game used to be? Isnât she brand new? Or is she saying it was a lot different when she started 45 days ago?
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yeap, what a failure of a roleplayer, he couldnât even keep up his own story
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She was responding to her own post on another thread. Oops.
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Typical Lucas ( and the 1001 alts ). Everything he says is 101% fact and totally objective, and even a mere two words from CCP in some lengthy document get quoted as âCCP saysâŚâ as if gospel truth and undeniable factâŚyet others can quote entire reams of pages and pages worth of âCCP saysâŚâ and somehow it is all âsubjectiveâ and everyone elseâs direct actual experience of the game is just âanecdotalâ.
Never mind Eve âcore principlesââŚthat is the core arguing method of a troll. Someone who claims to want discussion but who really has zero genuine interest in discussing anything and who canât even make up their mind whether they really are a 45 day old noob or just another disingenuous and dishonest alt who does not have the honesty to post on their main.
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