Separate Space for Newbies?

Communications Center General Discussion
446

So, after 4 weeks players will get flagged…

CCP said that they are going to update EULA on Newbie Griefing, so farming content in Exordium will be agains EULA for these “veterans”. But players will be able to visit this region and interact positively.

You’ll be able to: seed the market, recruit for corps, chat and teach, set your base of operations there (I assume), travel, etc.

But CCP communicated pretty clearly (I feel), that this region will be meant for newbs. Most materials won’t be available there, so I doubt that there will be any lvl 4 missions available there, for example. That region is intentionally designed to be a poor region, with little to do + farming there for veteran players is against EULA.

I bet that some players will set their base of operations from there, but if they want to do lvl4’s, they’ll have to exit Exordium… Trough Yulai chokepoint. And as I gather, evereyone older than 30 days will be “fair game”. If I was a ganker, I’d be moving my catalists to Yulai during the next month.

But then again… Most players, who are rational enough, won’t stay there, I feel. The lure of safety sounds attractive, untill you consider that whole traffic and materials have to move trough that choke point. So you either stay and run lvl 1 missions indefinitely, or always move trough Yulai (which could be perma-gatecamped) or just go somehwere else entirely.

And veterans are allowed to enter, so they could recruit and teach the newbs, basically.

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447

When I was a noob I started at the AIR labs in Bourynes. The system for missions etc is Trossere, just 2 jumps away and noobs are safe there anyway. I initially mined next door in 0.8 Mirilene…never got ganked. That little region is pretty safe…one can sell one’s ore at Vittenyn usually. So I’ve never really seen the need for change. There is some risk in that area…enough to create a measure of excitement…but its quite limited.

Its only when noobs move further away…as I did when mining and PVE-ing in 0.5 Aurcel…that the risk rises dramatically. That is where I was ganked…not in some 0.7 to 1.0 system. And that gank was what got me into a Khan type ‘revenge’ mentality that ensured my future in EVE. Without it…I’d have left EVE long ago. I did actually get revenge on the ganker 2 years later !

That is how you keep people in EVE.

448

Oh, I get it. I started in Bourynes, University of Caille. I don’t remember much from the early days, just that I ended up in Dodixie, “because all the stuff is there.” Eventually my dorky little Imicus got eaten by a mean mean Astero in some wormhole. So I worked really really hard to get Astero of my own… And not for the exploration bonuses, my Drones skills had the most SP at that point. So, I get it. :smiley:

In this sense, this expansion is pretty dog water… It doesn’t do much to lead players into this, besides depriving new players of resources even harder than 1.0 systems do now. And we both ended up ganked away from our safe starter systems, didin’t we? I feel that some newbs will still have such experience, even if Exordium doesn’t necessarily make that more much likely.

Exordium only helps with congregating all newbs together, so friends can pick any faction and still play together, that also makes it easier for corps to yoink newbs into corporations. Thinking of it now, playing solo is kind of harcore, maybe a bit too much. And the other part is that Exordium will be a decent PR move by CCP: “EVE got new player zone with no PvP, there has never been an easier time to learn EVE, play today!” blah blah…

Idk, I personally want to see what happens. I wonder how making players do that Exordium > highsec jump will make them feel. Could that normalise highsec > lowsec jump? And the next few expansions will focus on highsec, so those will be used to pull newbies out of exordium too.

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449

Back when I started ( gosh its 4.5 years ago now ) Dodixie used to be swarming with gankers. These days when I visit for suspect hunting there is often nobody outside at all. Even the Novus Ordo guy who used to be there 24/7 isn’t there any more. As for suspects, I can recall a time when you’d encounter loads on a trip from Jita to Dodixie. These days, you can travel all the way from Jita to Amarr and be lucky to encounter one.

Highsec is already a lot safer than it used to be.

450

yes. They evidently dislike nullsec and all inhabitants, thus the rant that does not belong in reality.

451

Maybe they thought gankers wouldn’t blow up a gank ship

452

I doubt the person even saw me…I was over 100km away.

453

If you put together what you two wrote, what CCP wrote as reasoning for Exordium and how they implement it now, something doesn’t add up.

If the premise is, that newbies usually don’t experience much ganking, why is the region not standard highsec space as usual with just the rules of the current starter systems added to rule out ganking and griefing? I mean they tell this directly, that ganking and griefing in the starter systems never was the issue.

Now i know that there is much discussion everywhere going on where people complain that their mining barge is ganked and that in their travel to jita it is not possible for them to reach it alive and whatnot. Exordium changes nothing of that and those people are still fair game since you are usually above 30 days old if you are able to fly a barge or have the need to ship some gankworthy freight to jita.

So if this all can’t be used as grounds to why exactly Exordium has to be a pvp free and veteran farming free space in the first place, why is it designed that way? There is just this obvious contradiction in the reasoning that was given.

Even the cited “need of enhancement of player retention” is nothing that can be caused by ganking since as told this is not happening to newbies.

Instead they will experience as described above the boredom in Exordium without ever knowing the “real EVE” and if they have not quit before leaving Exordium, once they do, the shock might be too hard to continue playing EVE as they can’t think of any countermeasures if their easy ways are too established and their knowledge is too limited.

So I would be surprised if Exordium actually has any positive impact on the new player retention.

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454

Its also not clear what the status will be of all the current starter and mission systems…many of which have protection for noobs. So if all starter and noob mission stuff will now be in Exordium…does that mean systems like Trossere will change ? And does it also mean that anyone outside of Exordium anywhere else in the whole of space will then be fair game ? That would make life a lot simpler…rather than flying around with a 'dont shoot the noobs in this list of systems ’ pinned to the monitor.

455

Currently, new players in EVE are afforded a measure of protection from PvP while in the starter systems, career agent systems, and SoE epic arc systems, by a rule posted on our support website, and more generally by the fact that new players usually don’t carry valuable items that make them worthwhile targets for “suicide ganking”. (Of course, this doesn’t mean they are never targeted, just that it is quite uncommon.)

However, new players do not know this, and will often have read stories about how ruthless and cutthroat New Eden can be, or even specific stories of new players being destroyed in highsec space. This means that some new players are learning the basics of EVE Online under a cloud of anxiety, knowing that another player could show up and attack them at any time.

Because of the dishonest anti ganking crybabies.

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456

To make the difference between this new security tier and highsec space clearer, Exordium systems will be set to 1.0 security status and all other systems that are currently 1.0 will be changed to 0.9 security.

The new security tiers will be:

  • 1.0 – Starter Space (Exordium)

  • 0.9-0.5 – Highsec

  • 0.4-0.1 – Lowsec

  • 0.0 and below – Nullsec

As the folks passing along messages from the discord noted above: we’re not changing the old starter systems or career agents in this expansion. The most important reason we’re leaving those untouched at this time is that we don’t want to disrupt the gameplay flow for folks who started playing right before the expansion (it would suck if you started your career agents in one system but when you came back a few days later you had to travel to another region to continue them). We aren’t promising that the existing career agents will stay put forever, but we have no plans to remove or move them in the forseeable future. - CCP Fozzie

As has been mentioned above, the travel in and out of Exordium will consist of a normal stargate connecting to Yulai (which we expect to be the primary path most players use to leave and it will definitely be the primary way to enter) as well as some single-use per character shipcasters that lead to the FW War HQ systems for each faction (Mehatoor, Onnamon, Intaki, and Amo). The shipcasters will have ship restrictions that we can adjust as needed for balance, although we plan to start with a set of ship restrictions that allow players to use all the ships that are very common for new players (which includes T1 haulers). Recycling alts to use the shipcasters with T1 haulers would be technically possible, but we have a few ways of adjusting things if it becomes a problem including declaring that tactic against the rules and taking enforcement actions against heavy users, or if needed we can limit the allowed ship types further (but we’d only want to do that if it’s really needed, since it would have a detrimental impact on normal new player activities). - CCP Fozzie

We’re taking a similar “wait and see” approach to whether suicide ganking specifically targeting new players becomes a problem at the Manifest gate in Yulai. This is something we discussed internally from very early on in the design and we have some tools in our toolbox to respond if need be, ranging from changes to the new player griefing support page guidelines to some mechanical options that could make that specific chokepoint less vulnerable. This is another case where we don’t want to overreact ahead of time though and we’ll only take action if it turns out to be needed. - CCP Fozzie

Concerns about farming of the content in safety (either with veteran characters or with new alts controlled by veterans) is very valid but it’s also something we’ve been planning for from the beginning of this design. Besides the lower rewards for content and higher taxes in this space which were mentioned in the blog, the plan includes updating the support page to make farming of the content in Exordium by veteran players specifically against the rules so we can warn or otherwise take action against players who do it enough that it becomes noticeable. There will be a popup when a character older than 30 days enters or logs on within this region that also lets them know that this is a space for new players and they’re welcome to come to interact positively with the new players but that they’re not allowed to use the space for farming or griefing. - CCP Fozzie

457

I fully agree, but thats why some of us need to be going there to help them understand. Not by ganking them or filling them will bs ganking stories, but by teaching them what the tutorials do not.

knowing that another player could show up and attack them at any time.

They do still need to learn that they can be killed at any time when they leave exordium, and there are already a handful of people that have made it their mission to do exactly that. Gank them the moment they are out of the DMZ.

While CCP is trying to bring people in and allow them to learn the basics of this game, which might help them remain, players will always ruin it. Players are at fault for a lot of the things that have been changed in this game.

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458

Psychology. Emotions. Vibes.

There is no contradiction.

…

What?

Do you think it will be less shocking if they start in highsec instantly…?

Like having more time to learn basics … will give them shock?

Allowing them to learn more, before jumping into highsec, will give them more shock…?

So you’re saying that, the more time we give them to prepare, then less prepared they will be…

scarf,x1080-bg,f8f8f8.2-1795817877
scarf,x1080-bg,f8f8f8.2-17958178771411×1080 66.5 KB

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459

A few years ago I fell for the lies of one of the anti ganking crybabies, while I was in KFU.

One night a member started ranting in corp chat about their cousin unaliving himself because 2 mackinaws were ganked. I didn’t know at the time that member had pulled the same disgusting lie before.

As someone that has lost several cherished friends to that irreversable action, it set me off and I even made a post here on the forums about it. I ended up on one of aiko’s pages as the culprit for creating the lie simply because I did not screenshot it and had to go back through chat logs for evidence.

The fact is that some people will pull out any and every card they can imagine, no matter how utterly digusting it is in order to paint gankers as evil, vile people responsible for every possible bad thing to ever happen.

Those people do not stop at corp chat, local or even these forums. They go everywhere spreading their hate and lies and that ends up becoming the propaganda that keeps a lot of people from ever trying eve.

Those anti ganking crybabies are the very reason eve has the reputation it has with the public. They are evil, vile little creatures that have no business existing on the internet, in my opinion.

*Correction - I put it in discord and my now corp leader is the one that made the post on these forums. It’s been a few years, so I apologize for mistaking some of the details.

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460

I could be mistaken and not up to date, so you tell me if ganking and not-getting-ganked mechanics are part of the tutorials now? Maybe creating safespots, undock and docking spots? Maybe scouting? Getting intel via the ingame map at least and identifying gank hotspots and current activity? Travelfitting? Teachings not to use the autopilot?

I am sure that all these basic things that are told for years now once ganked folks start to cry out on the forums are surely part of the tutorials by now, right?

Or is it still the way that you have to either find it out yourself or join a corp before you get to know the essentials? (and i am not even tackling any advanced topics here).

461

Don’t be silly. The tutorial still tells you to fit guns to your venture in case pirates attack you.

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462
Confusion

What does this:

Have to do with this:

???

What does current tutorial have to do with upcoming expansion … or whatever your issue was here:

Please, at least once, explain your line of reasoning… I can’t take this anymore…

Edit: So you’re responding to this comment:

Which was on the topic of allowing people to learn things more slowly, step by step, by starting in Exordium…

So you then do a Red Herring fallacy, by picking on the state of current tutorial:

Which somehow, supposedly, in your head… invalidates the idea of allowing people to learn step by step…? Learn a bit in Exordium, then a bit in highsec…

So we can’t allow newbies to learn step by step, because currently there is no tutorial on travelceptor fits and whatnot…?

Socrates, your mental gymnastics are next level…

People will learn how to shoot rocks in Exordium. Then they will go to highsec and have no clue about ganking, just as always. Just a tad bit later. Simple. The reason why things are done this way, was explained by me at least 4 times, to you, personally. Other people also did so. I just don’t know how to help you anymore, man…

463

@Sonder_Majus:

Sorry for pointing it out in detail and you couldn’t follow it.

Let me try to repeat and rephrase it:
You have drawn a conclusion on my post: “So you’re saying that, the more time we give them to prepare, then less prepared they will be…”
and then you posted a picture with question marks implying that you don’t understand the conclusion.

Therefore i answered again, along the line that the longer people stay in Exordium, then the longer they are kept from learning the relevant knowledge to survive in the rest of EVE. A walled garden will not teach you any relevant knowledge and doesn’t let you experience what matters.

Thereby i confirmed your conclusion: You are right: “The more time we give them to prepare, the less prepared they will be” → because they will not be prepared in that enviroment. They will not learn the relevent knowledge, no matter how long they stay there.

Unless of course all that is part of todays tutorials, which i don’t know and which was the question for you and if still valid, that would have been my point.

Not sure what is so hard to understand?

EDIT: I put your name into the reply, so you easily will know it is addressed to you.

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464

Exordium is the first step, not the last.

As the announcement webpage suggests, it is intended to learn basic movements and mechanics. Again, it is still up to us, the community, to teach them the rest.

This is where I will say again that veteran players should show up in exordium to provide guidance and mentor new players. Not fill them with lies about gankers. To teach them the very things you mention.

We, the players, build the community we want.

Help new people where you can. When you meet know-it-alls that refuse to learn, allow Safety. to teach them. They will either adapt and thrive or they will not. There is nothing left for you to do after that point anyway.

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465

Idk about the preparation, but as been copied and pasted again and again, Exordium is about giving them the free space to learn about the game, without the feeling of them having to look over their shoulder that they will get attacked (as mentioned, they don’t know in the current starter systems, they cannot be griefed or attacked in their first 30 days)

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