Shield remote repair rigs and implants

[James_Baboli]

So, Remote shield reps have some notable disadvantages compared to armor in many circumstances. Namely:

• Less cap efficient.
• Less raw HP/s
• No variants beyond t2 for large remote shield reps.
  * No rigs or unique implants for shield to up repair amount or make them more cap efficient.
• Much harder to get benefits from Saviors because of the much less cap efficient nature of shield reps.

These are compounded by the battleships with bonuses to armor reps, which aren’t duplicated in shield.

Thus I propose

• Remote Shield Repair Maximizer rigs, which increase rep amount by 5/ 7.5% (t1/t2 respectively) in exchange for a 10% increase in CPU needed
• Remote Shield Port Optimizer rigs which reduce cap used per cycle by 20/25%(t1/t2 respectively) in exchange for a 10% increase in signature radius
  * A series of remote shield repair sets which mirror the Asklepian sets, possibly in the Sansha LP store since the Guristas have the hydra set
• Ideally, either a faction or storyline large remote shield rep, but this one gets tricky in combination with the above.

This would provide a fairly large shakeup, and make shield small gangs better able to compete other than by kiting with armor small gang, as well as making more of the fleet PVE more even between shields and armor.

And yes, this is reviving a 2020 topic which closed for inactivity.

[Syzygium]

@James_Baboli

Less cap efficient.

They must be less efficient because they have the benefit to apply instantly. You can adapt to target switches a lot faster, while in armor fleets the target must survive until the RRs have cycled, thus you will always have a lot more “overrepping” in Armor gangs. This benefit of shieldreps is actually really big, so being less cap efficient is an acceptable tradeoff imho.

@James_Baboli

Less raw HP/s

A Large Remote Shield Booster II reps 680HP in 8 Seconds. Thats 85HP/s.
A Large Remote Armor Repairer II reps 512HP in 6 Seconds. Thats 85.33HP/s.
(all basic module stats)

Looks pretty much equal to me.

@James_Baboli

No variants beyond t2 for large remote shield reps.

There are also none for Armor.

@James_Baboli

No rigs or unique implants for shield to up repair amount or make them more cap efficient.
+
Much harder to get benefits from Saviors because of the much less cap efficient nature of shield reps.

Rigs: True, but those Armor-Rigs come at a high cost: Buffer. Because if you use them, you can’t fit a Trimark in that place, and since Armor Reps are delayed, Buffer is what makes you live in a RR fleet. However you have a point here, having the option of a shield counterpart for the “Remote Armor Augmentor” Rigs would be okay I think.

Implants: Savior Set offers the same benefits for both Armor and Shield. Also the SE-80x Implant Series reduces capacitor need for Remote Shield Boosters. Yes, shield ships eat more cap then but in return they can use Capacitor Power Relays in the lows that don’t hurt their tank (in Armor-Setups they do, because they do cost a LowSlot) and the penalty of CPRs doesn’t apply for Remote Shield Transfers.

Don’t see an Issue here.

To your suggestions:

@James_Baboli

Remote Shield Repair Maximizer rigs, which increase rep amount by 12.5/ 15% (t1/t2 respectively) in exchange for a 10% increase in CPU needed

No. Increased Rep Amount would make them stronger AND more cap efficient at the same time. Since they are already equally strong in Raw HP/s (see above), such a Rig isn’t needed.

@James_Baboli

Remote Shield Port Optimizer rigs which reduce cap used per cycle by 20/25%(t1/t2 respectively) in exchange for a 10% increase in signature radius

Sounds okay for me, would be equal to the Remote Repair Augmentors.

@James_Baboli

series of remote shield repair sets which mirror the Asklepian sets, possibly in the Sansha LP store since the Guristas have the hydra set

Don’t understand that one. The CrystalSet is the Mirror to the Asklepian Set already. I see no need for an additional RR-set for Shield, Armor doesn’t have a special one either.

@James_Baboli

Ideally, either a faction or storyline large remote shield rep, but this one gets tricky in combination with the above.

I don’t see any reason against a Storyline Large Shield Transfer, nobody will use it large scale anyway, just like the ‘Peace’ Large Remote Armor Repper isn’t used large scale. Faction one? Why? Armor doesn’t have them either?

After all this is a very delicate issue, because the instant-application for ShieldReps is a HUGE benefit on the battlefield plus the point that every armor fleet needs to sacrifice DPS (less damagemods) and mobility (armor rigs, plates) if they want to achieve enough buffer to survive the delayed reps. If you make shield-RR equally strong this can easily break the balance. I would suggest to do one step at a time and look how it plays out. Beginning with the Cap-Saving Rigs (mirrors to the Remote Repair Augmentor Rigs) could be a such a first step.

[James_Baboli]

@Syzygium

They must be less efficient because they have the benefit to apply instantly. You can adapt to target switches a lot faster, while in armor fleets the target must survive until the RRs have cycled, thus you will always have a lot more “overrepping” in Armor gangs. This benefit of shieldreps is actually really big, so being less cap efficient is an acceptable tradeoff imho.

That’s also handled by the shorter optimal range. There’s also the lack of a battleship shield rep platform. And generally tighter fittings because CPU is generally harder to manage than PG. And the lack of an omni passive in shields means cap is even more important.

@Syzygium

There are also none for Armor.

Peace reps, which you then mention later.

@Syzygium

Rigs: True, but those Armor-Rigs come at a high cost: Buffer. Because if you use them, you can’t fit a Trimark in that place, and since Armor Reps are delayed, Buffer is what makes you live in a RR fleet. However you have a point here, having the option of a shield counterpart for the “Remote Armor Augmentor” Rigs would be okay I think.

Same opportunity cost for these rigs on shield ship. And the midslot cap module options are pretty damned good for armor ships, especially on cruisers that can make space for a large cap battery.

@Syzygium

Don’t understand that one. The CrystalSet is the Mirror to the Asklepian Set already. I see no need for an additional RR-set for Shield, Armor doesn’t have a special one either.

Oversight. there was a pyfa bug that made them apply in pyfa when I originally did this, and I forgot to nix it.

@Syzygium

I would suggest to do one step at a time and look how it plays out. Beginning with the Cap-Saving Rigs (mirrors to the Remote Repair Augmentor Rigs) could be a such a first step.

Very fair position. Thanks for at least considering it.

[Syzygium]

@James_Baboli

There’s also the lack of a battleship shield rep platform.

I would agree with this point even. When CCP implemented the EDENCOM ships, I wondered why they don’t have a Bonus on Remote Shield Boosters, comparable to the Triglavians Remote Armor Doctrine. From what I hear and see on the Killboards, the EDENCOM ships perform quite underwhelming (especially when considering their price tag) compared to the Triglavians, maybe filling this niche could even help them out.

@James_Baboli

Peace reps, which you then mention later.

Yeah, Shield reps could get something like this, it probably won’t break the game. But I doubt it would affect the balance at large. ‘Peace’ Armor RRs are rarely used, I personally don’t know any doctrine fit where they are mandatory (doesn’t mean they don’t exist ^^). They are more cap efficient than the others, but really, that isn’t what is going to make you win or lose the engagement in most cases. Having a Storyline Shieldrepper that is more efficient would at least give both sides the same options in theory. However, I am not sure CCP will touch “storyline” items any more, most of them (if not all) are very very old content, from the times of COSMOS arcs…

[James_Baboli]

@Syzygium

I would agree with this point even. When CCP implemented the EDENCOM ships, I wondered why they don’t have a Bonus on Remote Shield Boosters, comparable to the Triglavians Remote Armor Doctrine. From what I hear and see on the Killboards, the EDENCOM ships perform quite underwhelming (especially when considering their price tag) compared to the Triglavians, maybe filling this niche could even help them out.

That and the nestor, which is actually what i was most thinking of. With the right setup, the nestor can run 6/7 large reps stable with saviors, for 1200 Hp/s, which is obnoxious to break.

@Syzygium

‘Peace’ Armor RRs are rarely used, I personally don’t know any doctrine fit where they are mandatory (doesn’t mean they don’t exist ^^).

A couple of PVE doctrines don’t fit or cap right without it, but they’re too limited in number to be mainlined on a pvp doctrine that people actually fly regularly without the price becoming effectively impossible to manage.

[Skeltek]

@Syzygium

They must be less efficient because they have the benefit to apply instantly. You can adapt to target switches a lot faster, while in armor fleets the target must survive until the RRs have cycled, thus you will always have a lot more “overrepping” in Armor gangs. This benefit of shieldreps is actually really big, so being less cap efficient is an acceptable tradeoff imho.

Nobody uses t2 remote armor reps on a Nestor for serious PvE. Storyline versions have less cycle time and use much less capacitor.
Combined with command bursts the rep cycle time is really insignificant when combined with broadcast delay, server tick, staring the locking sequence, server tick for client to update and another delay when activating the modules.
Since grazing the topic, there is no Nestor equivalent, which makes a pilot rep as much with shield transfers.

Also armor has a massive EHP buffer by design, while shield tanks would need to sacrifice a valuable mid slot.

@Syzygium

There are also none for Armor.

There is the ‘Peace’ storyline version.

@Syzygium

Rigs: True, but those Armor-Rigs come at a high cost: Buffer. Because if you use them, you can’t fit a Trimark in that place, and since Armor Reps are delayed, Buffer is what makes you live in a RR fleet. However you have a point here, having the option of a shield counterpart for the “Remote Armor Augmentor” Rigs would be okay I think.

Trimarks are usually used on the rep target. The Nestor itself can fit for regular tank modules, since no damage application mods are required.

I think storyline versions of armor reps are not use ‘large scale’ either, but they got high potential in PvE fleets or application.
For risky PvP ops potential storyline shield remote reps wouldn’t be used either.
Remote armor reps do not need to compensate the insignificant cycle time by both rep power and armor buffer either (that’s twice compensation, despite the impact of the rep-delay being overstated anyway).

[James_Baboli]

1: Removed ask for remote rep amount boosting implants.
2: Edited down SIGNIFICANTLY ask for remote rep amount boosting rigs
3: Proposing rough stats for a storyline large remote rep of 76 CPU 190 PG 605 rep amount 7.2s cycletime and 348 GJ/cycle, which is the rounding for applying the same proportions as for a Peace rep in relation to the t2 version
4: Also proposing rough stats for a storyline medium remote shield booster of 36 CPU 46 PG 302 boost amount 7.2s cycle time and 165 GJ/cycle, via the same method.