Please stop that discussion of back ops or do it elsewhere.
There is a list of other ships in dire need of help.
Discussing content directly in your OP. If you donât want it discussed here, donât list it for discussion here. On a related note, this is the problem with people brain-dumping everything into one thread.
The question is not âwhat can they do that others cannotâ. The question is âwhy would you bring them to a fight?â.
The Sin, with a rack of guns and its drones can do 1100 dps. 2 T3Cs exceed that, for less than half the cost. Being cruisers with covops, they can gtfo faster. Being cruisers with dps rooted in their hardpoints (aside from the prot), they arenât vulnerable to smartbombs almost immediately wiping half their dps away. Being cruisers, they have better scan res, offering faster dps time, faster points, faster webs. They can have utility highs with neuts in them too.
The widow can jam anything smaller than a T2 cruiser, yes it absolutely can. But if it fits ECM, itâs vulnerable to RNG and if the shtf, it has virtually no buffer to help it exfil (60k ehp on a battleship). It also has â â â â DPS if it is fit for ECM. Bringing in a falcon will accomplish the same - if not one falcon, then two will exceed the effectiveness of the Widow. Again, at a pittance of the cost.
The panthers can absolutely volley stuff with arty. Iâve seen some very funny videos of that. Then again, 10 bombers against a webbed and painted target will do more. Fit with bomb launchers, they could conceptually wipe a whole fleet off grid if thereâs a counter-drop.
The 'deemer tank is an ironic and funny gimmick⌠in a ship class where âgetting a fightâ = âdeadâ, it has a decent buffer tank. Yes it lets the blurry line between âgetting a fightâ and âwe encountered some resistanceâ shift a bit, but not enough to matter. To quote a corpmate, âthey still pop like ticktacksâ.
As for the grappler, the rapier called. It had a good laugh. Sure the grappler is more effective at ultra-close ranges than a single web, a dual-web fit rapier will exceed that almost across the board, from 40km away.
The previously stated argument that âif you donât have enough people, blops increases your effectivenessâ remains the ONLY valid argument. And if youâre deploying blops, itâs supposed to be an asymmetric fight where the recipient of the drop should be vastly outnumbered/outgunned/completely screwed. If itâs not, youâre doing it wrong. The premium on that extra effectiveness prices them out of the fight for anyone other than the people who just like to YOLO.
good to know. you not just whining but your whining about ships you donât even know how to use.
the widow unless a niche situation or flown by an idiot only uses one single mid for ECM thatâs it and when we are talking t2 cruisers and under there is 0 RNG your jam is higher than their sensors.
there is 0 wrong with blops as stated before no matter what area of eve you are talking about if you have numbers you are always better off in cheaper ships. There is nothing wrong with that its actually a really good system in an MMO.
could they use minor tweaks? yes maybe a bit more pg he a bit of cargo there but definitely nothing immediate or drastic.
NOW
if they wanted to add a separate line of blops more combat focused some how that may be an idea. I mean its not needed and I doubt it could be balanced if they also had their own jump drive but its a better idea the messing with the ones we have at the moment
If you were referring to the burst jammer, ignore the below rant - it would work for bugout. If you meant actual ECM, the below is my answer.
One of those two statements was you speaking from your ass. Go ahead and tell me which.
Using a single jam prevents one from fitting a racial-specific unless you plan on waiting long enough to refit, which is certainly grounds for losing your target in certain cases. Which means youâre running a multispec jammer.
A heated faction multi, with 2 SDAs and a T2 Dispersion Aug has a jam strength of 12. Minmatar generally have the worst sensors in the game, so lets look at their T1 cruisers (T1 cruisers < T2 cruisers, yes?) and find out how many of those you have a 100% jam chance on:
Stabber: 13 points. Nope.
Bellicose: 14 points. Still nope.
Rupture: 15 points. Even less chance.
Scythe: 12 points. YAY you actually were right for 25% of that class of ship.
Okay⌠maybe cruisers were a bit of a stretch. How about svipuls, since apparently theyâre cancer and people like flying them (I fly them often). Being minmatar they still have weak sensors. 11 base points, until of course they switch modes. So⌠nope, wrong for the entire T3D class (still < T2Cs)
How about Frigates⌠you know⌠youâve got a huge advantage there, their sensor strength sucks. Scalpel has 13 points. STILL not 100%.
Need I continue? Yes, if you fit heavy for ecm strength, you can jam out SOME targets smaller than a T2 cruiser⌠but do you honestly gain anything by jamming those? The only ones that you really gain anything from (logistics) you canât guarentee a jam on, which of course means your hot drop has already started going sideways.
Literally the only USEFUL jam you can land 100% is against a tackle frigate scramming someone to keep them from MJDing out. You can certainly jam other things⌠but why? A falcon can fit 4 jams, sit back at a safer distance, and save up to 4 ships. Or fit racial jammers and be useful against a multitude of actually threatening targets.
This is actually a splendid idea; follow the same branching as the Recon class, have âForceâ and âCombatâ variants of the BBs.
Give the combat ships T2 resist profiles, buff their tank stats a bit so that with links theyâve got about 300k EHP and about 800 dps, and take away their cloaks. Then it legitimately becomes something useful for small/med fleet engagements, rather than just buttsexing random ratters. With that much tank, youâd be very hard-pressed to alpha them off in a medium fleet engagement, which means logistics can keep them in the fight. If they counterdrop with carriers, you might stand a chance (it would take about 12 carriers to volley you off the field).
With links, it is roughly 33% more tank than a T1 BB with T2 armor tank⌠a fair tradeoff considering the price is roughly 8x as much as said T1 BB.
the widow is built for burst jammers and it works for more than just bugging out
Sure, it works great for jamming out everything in range. Iâd personally say that itâs not useful outside of âoh â â â â â given the short range, lack of permanence, and that it affects friendlies as well. Anything that disrupts your friendlies on an operation where the speed of which you kill your target matters is definitely something to use judiciously.
That said, there are lots of different "oh â â â â â moments that it would certainly help with.
Gotta be honest @Lugh_Crow-Slave⌠I thought more about the concept of branching out blops BBs as they do with recon cruisers, and I love the idea. A lot. I have very often wished for a way to have them become valid in actual fleet fights, which is where I generally spend most of my time.
Insofar as the difference between dropping blops and dropping carriers:
- Blops is still cheaper than a carrier, so if you arenât sure what theyâre going to escalate, maybe expensive battleships makes sense over more expensive (and easy to tackle/defang) carriers.
- Blops has longer range, offering better force projection at the obvious cost of being a lesser amount of force
- Battleships are inherently more mobile than capitals, offering âfasterâ bugout options if the enemy counter-escalates higher than you
- To me, one of the biggest difficulties in brawling battleship doctrines is mobility and actually catching things. Throwing a cyno on a HIC, having the HIC bubble an enemy fleet and cyno up offers them an instant at-zero surprise. Assuming theyâre not in kitey â â â â â â â â . This to me is an amazing counter to an alpha fleet such as arty BB doctrines⌠theyâd lack the numbers to volley (ideally) whilst youâd be brawling fit to melt faces.
- Being not capitals, they have more docking options at their disposal, offering a wider range of operational facilities.
how the hell is 30+km short range? i mean it have you actually flown these ships? with the proper set up and 3 widows your fleet is almost never jammed where as theirs tends to be jammed faster than they can re-lock. its one of the cheesiest and most infuriating things to do in eve.
How the hell do you get 30km range? Even an 8.5 billion isk Unit W-634 burst jammer has a range of 25.5km.
The sentient burst jammer, only 50m isk at the moment, has a range of 19.5 (Edit: With a T2 dispersion projector that goes up to 24.4, still not â30+â). Itâs more than enough to break scrams in 99% of cases, but if theyâre 20km away and in a decent ship, theyâll maintain target lock after you MJD, which gives their tackle lots of time to burn for you and long point before you can warp out - the MJD spoolup is very obvious, which means you can bet a good cepter pilot will be burning in your align direction the moment they see that spoolup.
As for jamming them repeatedly, yes, Iâve seen similar doctrines used on dreadnoughts to firewall fighters. It would be very infuriating. That said, unless your widows have ECCM fit (another mid slot no longer giving tank) they stand a very good chance of jamming each other out. Iâm not saying the tactic doesnât work, Iâm just saying youâre throwing a wrench in your own engine too.
oooh noo they nerfed me widow.
links used to give you 35km with the faction mod
you can still get 30 using the rigs that used to be for application now that that has been nerfed and still get plenty of tank.
as for the ECCM why the hell would you be putting those on your widow? the remote sebos should be on your arazu and bombers
That would be one way to do it, yes.
With a 35km range, yea that reaches âcatholic priestâ levels of dirty touching. The number of wheels turning in my head right now is staggering. I do think that Iâd want ECCM locally though, remote sebos sound like a house of cards - once it starts to tumble, itâs done, at least in concept. Iâve never flown that kind of fleet comp before though so I cannot definitively say how it would work. I can certainly see the increased flexibility that it offers.
the reason RE-SeBos work is because the recons and bombers can be well out of the widowsâ range. this means they are all redundantly focused on the BBs and not chained. we would also be using the sensor fleet link and from what I understand its gotten a bit stronger since the move to on grid too
Ah, yes that makes perfect sense. A very interesting strategy. As Iâve never flown it, an inquiry.
Do you see much âstagingâ delay while your re-sebo ships burn away from the widows, where they need to hold off on their jamming cyles, or does the delay between bridging and jumping generally offer enough of a window for them to get far enough away from the Widows?
Have you ever used this strategy successfully against a carrier counter-drop? I have to imagine a good number of these Widows would wreak havoc on a carrier pilot.
the bombers are always well out of range by the time the BBs land and so are the recons if they are MWD fit. however at the start they run scan res scripts only the recons are ECCM for the first cycle then the bombers swap.
no never been counter dropped by a carrier and when dropping on carriers we normally only used ECMgus for jams in case the carrier is bait.
Yea, I figured youâd be using scan res scripts to start - no reason not to, helps your heavy hitters get on target faster. Another complaint of mine (their horrible scan res, especially with a cloak installed) that is nicely handled by such a doctrine.
I guess it depends on the size of the carrier drop. ECMgus would definitely work well for a couple carriers, but most of our engagements if we drop carriers, thereâs 50+ with faxes⌠no amount of jams could be coordinated to make that matter at all before things got absolutely shredded. Iâm thinking about the potential for the burst jammer to affect light fighters before they close enough to volley. Youâd still lose the fight, but it would certainly cost them a lot of fighters.
Pretty sure heavy fighters can still get off on you from outside of 35km, but the dps can and should primary heavy fighters to help mitigate that. I suppose thereâs no such thing as a perfect counter.
lol true but at that size your working outside the blops niche to begin with. what we will normally do if counter dropped by carriers is jump in support fighter carriers of our own and lock theirs down with a tengu (if we were expecting it) or a falcon. if its to much we bug out.
but yes with blops you always fit sebos to the support if you are bringing in the BBs unless you are dropping on a cap. otherwise the target is probably dead or mostly dead by the time the BB lands and locks
Well⌠not exactly. Iâm referring more to the counter-drop. To some extent you can anticipate the size of a counter-drop but you never really know until the fighters are already on their way to ruin your day. You may have dropped on a solo ship, which certainly fits blops, but they may have certainly pulled the rug out from under you.
Weâre big fans of that lately⌠can always tell when our capital FCs are ready for a full scale drop, because the supers donât stop ârattingâ (in their pvp fits, with cheap t1 light fighters they can just abandon) and the rorqs just stay sieged when neuts enter the pocket.
the capital sized boosters and widows do help with that at least. can always hit full cap and a good chance at least most of the blops can break tackle when a cyno lights.
@Lugh_Crow-Slave, ouuuhâŚ
Since I have spent a lot of time SiSi lately, I have been theorizing and playing with Widow fits. I think I have found one that actually does 800 dps and I never doubted the jamming capabilities.
I must investigate information links on that but I have a question, since you have flown black ops a lot more often that I have, do people put bling on their black ops?
some do but I never go above faction.
you should be able to get the widow over 1kdps with drones and calnav bcu
Yeah I get that. If I remember correctly it was 1147 with t2 drones and Caldari Navy Nallistic Controls, oh and with the Caldari Navy Cloaking Device the sensor resolution actually goes above 100mm.
Just for the fun of playing the ingame simulator, I looked at a purple fit one and after getting lightheaded there for a while, I saw numbers that would make every Falcon pilot blush.
So children, buy your Widow(maker) today because come October 24th, all t2 prices will skyrocket to kingdom come.