my venture was blown up, fitted with 3 ecm!! nothing of value was lost.
No itâs not. Cargo and ship scanning both require effort/time and require modules that have a real resource cost and a fitting cost.
You know what is actual free intel? The Overview. And Local Chat. Oh, and dscan. Letâs get to work making people go suspect for using those before we move down the list to intel sources that already have some cost.
Yeah lol except one requires a lock and activation of a module. If you had a list of your coworkers and for example versus if you went locker to locker or desk to desk looking through peopleâs â â â â . Knowing who is around seems pretty innocent as there are more than just malicious ways to use local. Is someone already at this site so I should find another? Is this belt already being mined? Is that gate dangerous so I can find another route? But the cargo scanner has only one use and itâs malicious and thus should give a suspect timer.
As for risk vs reward, invested time is not risk. Locking targets and scanning them while putting your frigate that costs maybe 500k would be a risk, though extremely minor, if the only way it would be destroyed wasnât through ANOTHER suicide gank.
All (most?) of the suicide gankers want high sec to be dangerous and unpredictable but they seem to always be against any idea that makes them vulnerable. They seem to want pinatas to bash with no real option for them to fight back. Youâve got a hell of a world in EVE and Iâm into danger but currently there is none for this kind of play style. They can just calculate in game if they have the firepower before they fire.
I spent a while in Jita scanning Gilas and haulers seeing how much effort it would actually be to stalk one and profit from their deaths and it just wasnât enough. Itâs too easy, requires too little investment and puts you at too little risk.
In my final opinion, not only should cargo scanners give a suspect timer, but they should also cost over 50,000,000isk. Not asking for concord to destroy people who ship scan, just a meaningful investment on both sides to risk. You wanna put the scanner on a crucifier? Youâll be down 50kk pretty fast. Looks like you need to risk something a little more durable and bulky just like everyone else in EVE that you keep telling to âplay smartâ.
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So profitable suicide ganking is both too much effort and too easy? You say both is a single paragraph. Make up your mind.
Scanning someone provides no reward nor hurts anyone. That requires shooting someone which has a massive cost in highsec and no guarantee of success or profit.
Given scanning someone provides no reward - it just gives you awareness of what is around you - it should require no risk by your logic. Clearly you have some sort of issue with suicide ganking, but if you think it needs to be made more difficult or risky, then perhaps suggest changes that actually impact on ganking, not a simple intel tool that aready has costs and gameplay associated with it.
You need to re-read what I wrote. I said I was surprised at how little effort it was. It was too easy and requires no investment or risk.
There is a guarantee if you have a fitting tool open and ship scan properly. EHP vs ammo is a very simple tool.
As for the last point, awareness of whatâs around you is fine when youâre talking about nearby ships or entities but knowing someoneâs cargo can have no reason other than malicious intent to investigate. I donât haul, I have few assets and a ton of isk, the reason I want this to happen is because I want more targets and because I hate when players are too safe.
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I read it as you saying the profit wasnât enough for the effort. Which it usually isnât.
If ganking were as easy and risk free as you imply why isnât everyone doing it? There is no guarantee that you we be able to scoop the loot or it will even drop, plus there are all the costs associated with negative security status you have to deal with.
This is drifting off topic to the standard ganking thread though. The topic is the cargo scanner, a simple intel tool that does nothing but provide information about what is going on around you. It already has costs and counters and neither you nor the OP has provided any reason why such a change would make the game better. I get you both think it would reduce the amount of highsec ganking, but I donât see how that is good for the game. But even if we accept that it is and we want less suicide ganking, why not go with some more direct changes instead of a messing with a intel tool that is harmless in itself?
Tbh I would like it to remain how it is in terms of the amount of ganks. I just want people who are ganking to be more vulnerable.
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The way the law actually work is, âDonât get caughtâ and if you get caught have a lot of money to pay for the best lawyer to get you off, or if you confess, or if you snitch, you get dramatically lower sentencing.
Plenty of people doing bad stuff but until they are convicted they have a lot of rights. Like not having your property searched without a warrant etc. Applying to court to have a wire tap. etc. But back to EVE.
Agree. 1000%
Agree. 999%. But thatâs good enough, right.
So itâs a bit like train spotting. You are just making a list of rare and valuable items for a hobby.
With scanning, you take the risk out of ganking. That is you know whats in a ship. And it frustrates gankers when you fit ECM. So they will even gank an ECM venture. Because theyâre desperate to know what has someoneâs got to hide.
Sitting in their scanning ships has no risk. And provides intel for a gank, end of.
You are trying to say itâs not needed. Yet your underlying argument is; donât change it because it will hurt my income. Which leads me to say that this is the very thing that needs to be changed.
A scanner separates ganking for grief verses ganking for profit.
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The people doing ganks are easier to kill than those being ganked.
A blackbird or mach with no tank is easier to kill than a freighterâŚ
The risk in ganking is that you donât know what will drop. Even if you know what the target is carrying, it still may not drop.
You will gank these if you can.
I hear 1500 plex in cargo can also stop ganking. I hve even tried with 1499 plex.
It will provide more content. You will have the info to gank still - but you will be trading alts, via security status losses. You will have haulers and âothersâ trying to kill you. Rather than just sitting there eating a sandwich on a gate, in invulnerability mode, scanning and selecting who to gank. You will actually have to think what is a good target. (There are plenty of good targets in null, low, and j space.)
Plus the hauler will have to think, âshould I attack this suspect guy?â And if he does itâs fair PVP.
And thatâs how it benefits the whole game having a suspect timer on ship to ship scanning.
More content is better for everyone. Donât you agree?
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Agree. The loot fairy comes into it. As with everything.
I should not use superlatives. However this is semantics.
What I should have said is âwith scanners you reduce the risk significantly,â so at least you know something of value may drop.
Like using a scanner in a relic/data site. You can scan which may be worth hacking. But you may fail the jack and get nothing.
More pvp in highsec and less safe highsec⌠unless you want to gank⌠ok then. Makes alot of sense as to why this game is the mess it is⌠Everyone wants to be safeâŚ
So how is there any problem with scanning?
Pretty much any activity you have an idea of what youâre going to get. Itâs not always guaranteed, but at least you have an idea. There are also ways to massively reduce risk in other activities.
I donât get why scanning before a gank should be discouraged in any way. All i see is âi donât like ganking so nerf itâŚagainâ
You donât understand what being flagged as suspect means. It doesnât mean the flagged pilot did something âsuspiciousâ, or that he did something with any âbad intentionsâ. It means he did actually damage someoneâs assets in some way, not that he might want to do that. He did something like stealing or shooting someoneâs assets, not merely acquiring intel on them, whatever the intended use of that intel could be.
And how exactly would that be beneficial to the game? I personally find being able to stealthily do things and requiring pilots to pay attention to what could be going on around them much more interesting gameplayâŚ
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. How is the ship/cargo scanner going suspect supposed to help haulers âtake action against stacked oddsâ?
This is irrelevant. Thatâs not what becoming suspect in Crimewatch terminology means.
Actually, thatâs what makes it a really bad and poorly thought idea. Changes to game mechanics should be made to improve the overall game experience, not to grief any particular group of players. The motivations to suggest a game change should never be to make things easier for you and harder for someone elseâŚ
These risk vs reward arguments are so flawed⌠According to that reasoning, things like probe scanning ships or even cosmic signatures should make you go suspect too, since they also allow you to acquire intel with no riskâŚ
How is scanning a ship or its cargo an act of aggression like the other cases you mention? How exactly does the âvictimâ experience any kind of damage to his/her assets by the mere fact of being scanned like it happens in the other cases that warrant a suspect or criminal timer?
Youâre conflating the potential use that can be made of that intel with the actual damage done, which is none. The suspect and criminal timers are for when actual damage is being or has been done, not for when potential damage might be doneâŚ
Like scanning probes and so many other things, so what? What does this have to do with the meaning of the suspect timer?
Ganking is neither free nor intel, and it does have risk. This makes no sense.
This is irrelevant too. Youâre not supposed to have the right to shoot at someone without CONCORD intervention just because he does something you donât like.
Probe scanning requires activating a module to launch the probes too, and actively looking for your target, but again this is irrelevant. Suspect timers arenât about pilot intentions or âsuspiciousâ behaviours, theyâre about actual asset damage being done.
Thatâs not what suicide gankers want, thatâs what CCP wants. High sec is dangerous and unpredictable by design. Youâre not supposed to be safe anywhere in EVE. Suicide ganking mechanics are just one of the means by which that is accomplished. Suicide gankers just make use of that game mechanic to play the game the way they like.
Gankers are against any idea that aims at nerfing suicide ganking for no reason other than the nerf itself, much like haulers and miners would be against any idea that would make suicide ganking easier.
The difference here is that you donât see any thread asking to change game mechanics to make suicide ganking easier (except for joking or trolling), but there is no end to the threads asking for all kinds of nerfs to suicide ganking one step at a time, with consideration to whether the changes would be good for the game overall only as an excuse or an afterthought, if at all.
So what? The risk would be in the actual ganking if you wanted to do it. Why should the mere scanning itself be harder or riskier? Why should it be riskier than say probing down a ship?
That 50M figure seems arbitrary (why 50 and not 20 or 100?), but this is an example of a change that might actually be a good idea, not sure. It would make it worth suicide ganking the scanning ship and thus increase their risk in a way that makes more sense and would be more beneficial to the gameplay than a suspect timer.
Thatâs one of the risks, it doesnât make suicide ganking risk free. And itâs currently working as intended (by CCP), so you need a better reason than just wanting to make it harder for the gankers to change how it works.
What? You think it frustrates gankers that you fit ECM on the ship being ganked? Where did you get this idea from? ECM has to be one of the worst fitting options to defend yourself from being suicide ganked in high secâŚ
LOL. They gank Ventures, period. Whether they have ECM or not is irrelevant. What are you talking about?
And what does this have to do with ECM? Youâre making no sense with this ECM thing, LOL.
No, it doesnât, thatâs what the proponents of these many threads asking to nerf suicide ganking one step at a time like you donât understand. Suicide ganking is an integral part of the game. Itâs intended to be profitable by design, so that there are players willing to do it.
You need a reason other than you want suicide ganking nerfed for such a change to even deserve being consideredâŚ
Not an accurate statement, but so what? Itâs working as intended, why is that so hard to understand?
No, it wonât and thatâs not the reason you want the change either. It will just make it harder for the gankers, with no benefit to the game that I can see, and thatâs the only reason you want it.
And like many other poorly thought proposals like this, it might actually backfire or have unintended consequences because of use cases you may not have considered. The players that use dedicated scanners would adapt, or just indiscriminately gank everything, and then you or someone else would come back complaining that more nerfs are needed because there is too much gankingâŚ
Youâre making a lot of wrong assumptions about what would happen, showing that you know little about the game mechanics involved, that you havenât really thought carefully about this, and that the supposed âimproved contentâ is just an afterthought and an excuse to justify the change.
For starters, there is no security status loss associated with becoming suspect, you donât know how Crimewatch works, what do you mean?
Also, you appear to be thinking that the gankers would continue doing things the same way as before and not adapt. The scanning ship could simply pre-align, scan, then immediately warp to a safe location, for example. The hauler wonât have a chance to lock him and fight if the scanner doesnât want to. Or the ganker will simply indiscriminately gank everything if he thinks scanning isnât worth the trouble.
The only thing the change would accomplish is make things harder for the ganker, which is the real reason you want it but not a good reason to do it.
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I would say to this,⌠thats cool I get ya. but the way I think, information is everything. and if you gain access to MY information without my permission or grace, then I CONSIDER it a hostile action. that is why I propose a vote for the combat timer for UNWARRANTED searches and seizures. your comparison of reality and potential is useless here, as we are talking about potential until it happens, so in that case the entire conversation is on that leg. to me, it just goes without saying.
Never mind the potential. Everything is potential UNTIL IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED> yea?
I fail to see the legitimacy in your decline, in a nut shell its just an opinion, like mine. which you are free to express.
The actual damage that CAN POTENTIALLY take place, can ruin or bankrupt any corp⌠so I think the âthreatâ is a viable means to add a combat timer.
Cant wait to see if this happens because I actually feel, this timer would CREATE more content, and give the GANKED a fighting chance.
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Not really. If you shoot someone in highsec illegal you have done something. If you steal someoneâs ore you have done something. You get criminal and suspect timers respectively. Scanning someone does nothing.
Should locking someone up in highsec be a crime? You havenât done anything yet, but someone might not like it but you havenât done anything yet, certainly nothing that hurts the other guy.
Intel has some value yes, but it doesnât harm anyone. That is the obvious threshold here, where unlike stealing or shooting someone, someone scanning you does nothing. Many people probably donât even notice - it is harmless. And scanning already has costs and counters.
Honestly, I donât think a suspect flag would do much at all. Gankers already pay so much to actually attempt to kill something, they wonât notice throwing away a worthless frigate from time-to-time, and the suspect baiters would love the (temporary; probably as many will learn after a loss or two not to touch anything loitering suspect on a gate) increase in customers. I just think it makes no sense to criminalize what is essentially just peering in someoneâs car window. It might be suspicious, and even likely nefarious, but not illegal on itâs own, nor should CCP waste limited development time on something that will do nothing.
Yeah, not so much. The scanner does nothing, even if you do manage to explode it. It is the bumper or scout you need to worry about that is going to bring the criminals on you. There is no situation where a gank squad is going to care about someone exploding a throwaway frigate, or will it change their plans once they have a target.
Ok, this is worthless and not how development decisions are made, but why not try it as the forum allows it?
Should cargo scanning be considered a âsuspect levelâ offence by CONCORD and result in the scanning pilot receiving a suspect flag?
- Yes
- No
- Iâm not sure
0
voters
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Like wise you can look in anyones wreck/jetcan without getting a suspect flag.
But its really not going to change anything. Gankers already use alts and cheap ships. Losing a scanner ship isnât going to let you âfight backâ any more than you can already.
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Go out side and look really close into random cars at the local mall or superstore. You technically have not done anything wrong yet. Tell me how it goes. Look really close at Police cars at the station while your at it and please post to youtube.
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Real-world comparisons are daft, but you arenât doing anything wrong looking in peopleâs windows, at least in most cases. Remember, generally in life you can look, but donât touch - a perfectly reasonable line to decide what is a suspect-level offence in a video game as well.
But unlike in real life, you can take the law into your own hands without serious repercussions - you are even encouraged to do so in Eve. If you donât like someone scanning you, just scan them yourself and then gank them. Ganking is easy, risk-free and has no consequences remember? Scanning frigates are paper thin so you probably can might even be able to turn a small profit if you are careful.