Ship fitting idea

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

@Renge_Ukyo

Until it’s tested such claims cannot be correct. Only presumed. There is no basis for the comparison.

This is the purpose of math and modeling - we can predict with a high decree of precision and accuracy the results and consequences in advance, and as such determine if they’re worth implementing to the extent of field testing and deployment. Engineers won’t even build a model of an aircraft for a wind chamber, let alone a real thing for field testing, if the computer modeling or even chalkboard looks like garbage.

@Renge_Ukyo

you are ignorant if you don’t care

This is a false dichotomy. It’s a broad-stroked, narrow-minded, self-serving statement along the lines of “if you’re not for us, you’re against us”, or “if you don’t support this military spending bill, you’re unpatriotic” or “if you don’t pledge allegiance to the flag, you hate America”, etc.

@Renge_Ukyo

And as I’ve just said, support your claim with EVIDENCE !

• You expect me to doxx myself? Really?
• I only point it out as something that amused me . There is nothing to debate here.
• Credentials are not the same thing as qualifications and vice versa. They correlate, and often times credentials are used to suggest qualifications, but the absence of credentials does not indicate the absence (or presence) of qualifications

@Renge_Ukyo

Presumably you’re addressing us both, but I’m not sure so I’ll just say this.

Just you. I can’t remember the last time @Mkikaden_Tiragen and I ever disagreed on anything, except she doesn’t bear fangs as much as I do.

@Renge_Ukyo

Proper conduct only ever benefited a human being.

Come on, man… we don’t need to discuss these things here… this is so distasteful…

@Renge_Ukyo

Certainly he’s being antagonistic.

I have already stated this is not my intention. Calling you out for initially being a jackass on purpose is not antagonistic, and taking a thumbtack and poking holes at a balloon to let the air out is not antagonism, it’s peer review.

@Renge_Ukyo

I see this, as I see you see this.

You are myopic in a great many respects, not just with regards to your ideas, but in your world view. Not an insult, just something you should consider the possibility that it might be true, because if I am in fact correct, you have the opportunity to improve yourself.

@Renge_Ukyo

And if you’re killboard is embarrassing to you, perhaps rejoin the discussion on one of your characters that can provide you with a little better credibility.

“You didn’t support my idea, therefore I will embarrass you under the guise of challenging your qualifications in an alt-centric game”

@Renge_Ukyo

Maybe that will provide you with the emotional stability

You can’t accuse others of making personal attacks and do the same. Make an attempt to de-escalate.

[Renge_Ukyo]

@Ms_Steak

Actually its a pretty dry cut: you either give too little and some fits/formats cease to work or you give too much to the point that CPU/PG restriction might as well be abolished as a whole (exaggeration).

A point to Ms Steak! I suppose the impact itself in terms of what it’ll be is exactly that cut and dried. It’s a nut I’m trying to crack. =)

[Renge_Ukyo]

@Archer_en_Tilavine

This is the purpose of math and modeling - we can predict with a high decree of precision

Well then, lets see your math. You know, the EVIDENCE?

@Archer_en_Tilavine

This is a false dichotomy. It’s a broad-stroked, narrow-minded, self-serving statement along the lines of “if you’re not for us, you’re against us”, or “if you don’t support this military spending bill, you’re unpatriotic” or “if you don’t pledge allegiance to the flag, you hate America”, etc.

False dichotomy presumes both or all answers are incorrect. Telling you to read the dictionary is not going to lead to a false dichotomy, only literacy. To ignore something is to take it from your mind and disregard. To care for something is to apply effort, attention and consideration to something. How can you care for it, if you’ve ignored it?

@Archer_en_Tilavine

Credentials are not the same thing as qualifications and vice versa. They correlate, and often times credentials are used to suggest qualifications, but the absence of credentials does not indicate the absence (or presence) of qualifications

I do not expect you to destroy your personal security and privacy. That is in fact across the line. Now consider the correlation between credentials and qualifications. Qualifications are in fact the criteria for what must be at a minimum present in a person for a given purpose. License is given to those who meet those qualifications to perform a specific task. To provide credit to the claim that a person is qualified and licensed, a certificate of completion or ability is provided. This certificate is the credential that may be provided upon request in the due course of someones duties.

Your high school diploma, drivers license, and a police officers badge are all credentials.

If you are unwilling to make a public appearance, you may not make legitimate claims based on your career - even if you’re correct, which you may or may not be - because your credentials cannot be verified. So while the absence of credentials doesn’t indicate the absence of qualification - it does invalidate the argument because of how the rules of evidence work. If you cannot, or will not prove yourself, you can only express unverified statements that cannot be taken seriously.

Now if you had a DEV badge on your forum posts that credential holds some weight.

@Archer_en_Tilavine

Come on, man… we don’t need to discuss these things here… this is so distasteful…

I agree that a lack of proper rectitude in a human being is distasteful. If you find good conduct distasteful, adjust your bearing.

@Archer_en_Tilavine

You are myopic in a great many respects, not just with regards to your ideas, but in your world view.

If I’m myopic its only due in part to my interest in something. Now, let us consider that it applies to you as well. No one is beyond reproach, including me. However that implicates you too, and make no mistake, you are being reproached.

You have the inability to justify your statements with evidence, and an unwillingness to engage in proper conduct. These are glaring deficiencies that remove the ability for the community, and myself, to take you seriously.

@Archer_en_Tilavine

“You didn’t support my idea, therefore I will embarrass you under the guise of challenging your qualifications in an alt-centric game”

An alt-centric game… it implies a lack of teamwork from what I can see. Is it perhaps that no one agrees with your ambitions and ideas? Or is it perhaps a lack of trust?

Certainly both, but it’s still not an acceptable caveat to hiding behind a mask so you can engage in a poorly structured argument that has yet to through the legitimate force of fact, address anything satisfactorily.

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

@Renge_Ukyo

Well then, lets see your math. You know, the EVIDENCE?

This is not a quantitative matter, it is a qualitative matter. Quantitatively it works. Qualitatively, it sucks.

It has already been unambiguously demonstrated and generalized to apply to virtually every ship and most fits for any given ship that partitioning PG/CPU will severely limit and/or bias fits to a far greater extent than a single PG/CPU pool does now. This is not desirable. Anything your proposal can do, the status quo can do without this (or the other listed) limitations.

@Renge_Ukyo

How can you care for it, if you’ve ignored it?

I have not ignored it. I have engaged with you quite regularly - on topic, mind you.

@Renge_Ukyo

Qualifications are in fact the criteria for what must be at a minimum present in a person for a given purpose.

Credentials measure competency and intelligence in a limited context that does not capture smartness. Not even IQ exams capture smartness. Having knowledge and skill does not mean one is well equipped to apply it outside of their domain. In the real world there is no shortage of PhDs and MDs and JDs and those with advanced graduate degrees and certifications and this-and-that that are grade-A ■■■■■■■ idiots. Unfortunately, these same people are NOT the exception to the rule; they comprise a significant portion of the population. It goes to show you that advanced education and extensive experience is contextually vocational relative to actually being smart or having the ability to recognize one’s smartness or lack thereof, particularly in a field for which one is ill-suited despite excelling in another.

@Renge_Ukyo

If you are unwilling to make a public appearance, you may not make legitimate claims based on your career

EVE Forum culture is such that generally such claims are presumed to be true if a person has demonstrated faculties even if you vehemently disagree with them. I could name a few forum regulars and trolls that I think in several contexts are complete and total ■■■■■■■ moronic imbeciles, but I would not hesitate to believe that they had technical backgrounds by their word alone. I am not the exception to this world, and in the context of the EVE Forum community specifically, it would not be naive to do so. (This would not apply to Reddit for numerous reasons.) Furthermore, the EVE player demographic as a whole is heavily comprised of older, highly educated (degree, certifications, etc), advanced-career people such that a shot-in-the-dark would likely land on someone educated and fully equipped to teach sufficiently if not well.

Your reasoning may apply to the most formal of debate stages, but this is not a formal debate stage. This is an informal setting, semi-formal at best. Some “rules of engagement” must be modified or forfeit, but this can be done inhibiting the integrity of the arguments themselves.

@Renge_Ukyo

I agree that a lack of proper rectitude in a human being is distasteful. If you find good conduct distasteful, adjust your bearing.

You know this is not what I meant. You are purposefully taking this out of context to make a personal attack.

@Renge_Ukyo

Now, let us consider that it applies to you as well.

We are not discussing me, only you at this time. Self-improvement doesn’t come by focusing on others. Even if I personally were in fact myopic, it is entirely in your interest to focus on yourself and not on me, and it would be entirely my loss if I failed to focus on myself, so really, there is no need nor benefit for you to deflect the consideration that you might be myopic onto me. I’m not going to press or discuss this specific point further.

@Renge_Ukyo

These are glaring deficiencies that remove the ability for the community, and myself, to take you seriously.

You are new here. Do not speak on behalf of the community.

@Renge_Ukyo

it implies a lack of teamwork from what I can see. Is it perhaps that no one agrees with your ambitions and ideas? Or is it perhaps a lack of trust?

This is another false… multichotomy, I guess. There are numerous legitimate reasons to field alts, and many of those reasons have nothing to do with “teamwork” or “trust”.

@Renge_Ukyo

it’s still not an acceptable caveat to hiding behind a mask

Excluding you and me, at least 7 of the 9 other participants on this thread is a forum regular (I think the one other is as well) - none of these is the same player posting on an alt. I consider most of the above to be “forum allies” and “forum colleagues” (none of them are “forum enemies”, but I digress), but there is no conspiracy to summon them onto this thread and coordinate their responses. Of all the participants in this thread, I only reached out to one of them that I speak to daily and said “dude you have to check out this thread” - responses themselves were not coordinated. or even shown to each other for review before being posted.

[Brun_Warbear]

Haha. I’m not embarrassed. What do I possibly have to be embarrassed about?

@Renge_Ukyo

It wasn’t to examine every single case in a single post.

I posited one case and you chose to address another. Which you still avoid.

You do you, man, but your continuation to attempt to belittle people rather than actually counter their points is both obvious an boring.

@Renge_Ukyo

provide you with a little better credibility.

My credibility has been spoken to by others on this thread. Yours has only diminished. One does not require an extensive killboard to understand ship fitting.

Keep tilting at those windmills man. You’ll get them eventually.

[Brun_Warbear]

I’m out. I could have taken the time to debate my points (had the OP ever actually chosen to address them )

However, his chosen method of debate is to attack people, try to shame people, demand evidence when the burden of proof is his. He’s used complete red herring arguments to detract from his inability to actually counter points made and instead tried to undermine folk’s entitlement to make discussion by arbitrarily setting standards for contribution.

Y’all are being hardcore trolled. It’s not worth the time.

[Renge_Ukyo]

@Brun_Warbear

You do you, man, but your continuation to attempt to belittle people rather than actually counter their points is both obvious an boring.

Bring facts and evidence, not popular opinion if you wish to resume the debate. Enjoy your day =)

[Renge_Ukyo]

@Archer_en_Tilavine

You are purposefully taking this out of context to make a personal attack.

That describes almost every comment you’ve made in this forum so far. Again, bring facts and evidence, not popular opinion and favor mongering. I have asked no one to defend me, nor will I. I’m not perfect, but I don’t call people names, and I don’t fail to provide facts to my arguments. When you decide to bring facts, and evidence, then we’ll take you seriously.

[Brun_Warbear]

OK one last time because I’m feeling charitable.

[Devoter, Rolling Fit]

500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive

Medium Higgs Anchor I

Remaining PG: 331.3/1581.3

How does this work if that PG is allocated to high and low slots?

Your suggestion is game-breaking.

Edit: I realise you said T1 hulls. You can substitute in a thorax instead of the devoter. It’s also a popular (and T1) option.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Renge_Ukyo

A reasonably recent development called “mutaplasmids” has arrived.

Instance only loot needs to be removed from game.

The rest of the idea, still sucks.

-1

[Jerry_Falcone]

@Renge_Ukyo

but I think I need EVE to rip it to pieces before I’m going to hold myself up as a wise or learned player.

i’m pretty sure that’s what most everybody in this thread has been doing, and what were you doing?? personal attacks against them.

[Manweru_Cemenotar]

@Renge_Ukyo

However faux-ivory social high ground speaking on behalf of the 20k or so other players with out their consent

@Renge_Ukyo

And any pilot in any walk of life in EVE can attest to the frustration of fitting a ship for a given purpose.

oh sweet sweeet SWEEEEEEET irony. Right there.

[Renge_Ukyo]

@Jerry_Falcone

i’m pretty sure that’s what most everybody in this thread has been doing, and what were you doing?? personal attacks against them.

With respect that’s hardly an accurate appraisal of the situation. I have received something like the lions share of the personal attacks and nonsense in this thread with one post in response that had some factual evidence to base their argument with . Asking for feedback does mean asking Archer and his sort to tell me that I’m a jackass. It’s that kind of conduct that has no legitimate place in debate. Read the whole thread and you’ll see that he’s done nothing but make unfounded comments and move to insult when challenged for the evidence that backs up his claim. I have done everything I could to address his responses, and tolerate his conduct. Just as I’ve chosen to tolerate yours.

[Renge_Ukyo]

Ironic though it may be - I’m here to tell you it’s true. I’ve been in so many different teamspeak channels where people were griping and cussing about how they can’t fit this or that because of one reason or another.

There are also small graveyards worth a threads every year on the forums about that subject specifically. They aren’t always well-founded objections, but they exist nonetheless.

[Renge_Ukyo]

@Salt_Foambreaker

Instance only loot needs to be removed from game.

The rest of the idea, still sucks.

-1

Why remove instance only loot? What’s your reasoning here? I’m not sure I agree or disagree, but whats your thinking if I may ask?

[Renge_Ukyo]

@Brun_Warbear

OK one last time because I’m feeling charitable.

[Devoter, Rolling Fit]

500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive

Medium Higgs Anchor I

Remaining PG: 331.3/1581.3

How does this work if that PG is allocated to high and low slots?

Your suggestion is game-breaking.

Edit: I realise you said T1 hulls. You can substitute in a thorax instead of the devoter. It’s also a popular (and T1) option.

Not trying to be rude here - but lets see a whole fit please, cause I need to see exactly how the % of PG/CPU is apportioned across all the slots. And yes, I did see the edit =) Pick a hull and lets see what your concern generates because I really am curious, and willing to peer review the math.

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

That IS the whole fit. It’s a ROLLER fit. Knowledgeable/experienced EVE players know what Rolling is, how-and-why it is done, and what kind of fits are used to do it.

[Brun_Warbear]

That is the whole fit. That’s all it needs. It’s for a very specific purpose and any additional mods, perhaps bar a plate or two, would be wasteful in a ship that’s highly likely to get destroyed.

All the PG is used by the single prop mod.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Renge_Ukyo

Why remove instance only loot?

If I answer that trolls will attack your thread and it will be destroyed

[Archer_en_Tilavine]

In the many years of playing EVE (of which you have so few), I cannot remember a single instance in which such “fitting difficulty” was not easily resolved by either addressing flaws in fitting strategy or, more commonly, flaws in the meta itself such that an alternative meta was both better AND didn’t have fitting issue. The existence of players incompetent in the art of fitting does not justify the need for ANY fitting change (yours or other changes).

Granted, occasionally CCP gives buffs/nerfs to fittability of ships, but that’s only to adjust the oomph of a meta, not to adjust the meta itself.