How are these changes going to change that? These tiny and small groups will still exist. If they haven’t been pushed out by the big guys already, I don’t see this change suddenly making them more attractive. Astras are still super cheap, making them slightly easier to kill shouldn’t make them bigger targets for the big guys. The big guys want fights, too.
We’ve been over this above. I refer back to my first post in the thread.
I’m sorry but I don’t know how to explain this any more clearly. All I can say more is listen to @Arrendis. He understands my point and he knows you; maybe he’ll know what the missing piece I fail to convey is.
3 Likes
It is likely that many of those small groups will not be able to survive, some have a network of medium structures along with several large structures, the large structures such as a Fortizar are a strategic issue for big blocs in that capitals can be staged there. This makes them much more interesting targets and more likely for big bloc intervention if they look at a certain region for strategic reasons.
Often the small entities are relying in the defence in depth of medium structures by having a network of Astrahus for example. Making them a lot easier to kill takes away a major strategic plank of their defence. You as a big bloc player are not excited by shooting them, but the Fortizar, Azbel and Tatara are a lot more interesting and worth more and thus get your interest. By forcing Large structures you are forcing these small entities to be visible to big blocs, and that means they don’t have a chance in hell.
It is really why I said that you can’t visualise it because you see it from your level in a major bloc, I was never being insulting when I said that.
6 Likes
Is that actually the case, though? Are there examples of this I can look at? Places where a group killed a couple medium structures but didn’t hit the Forts? How common is this?
I mean, a group that can have a “defense in-depth” with multiple medium structures and some large ones sounds like a group that’s coherent enough to mount a defense regardless of time and timers. And it doesn’t sound like a group where having your stuff in asset safety for a week is going to ruin most of the members, either.
I kill any structure we can find - medium, large or whatever. Hell, we prefer the medium ones because you can hit them in a small group with bombers or vedmaks and if you get pushed off or die, no big deal. I don’t think simply owning a fort is going to make a group instantly visible to the big blocs - they’d have to be doing something to get the attention. Otherwise, nobody but big groups would have any large structures and from what you’ve said that doesn’t seem to be the case.
It sure feels insulting to be constantly told that because I’m not in a small group anymore that I can’t relate to being in a small group. I have been in small groups. I’ve had my stuff and structures blown up and had to decide if we could defend or not. Granted, this was a while ago, but I still had it.
I would say that’s because these changes that get pushed though year on year, which you are the face of, more often than not have a negative impact on smaller group. Pushing more and more into the ridiculously large groups or to just leave the game because their play style is gone or unusable because of a change designed to rework or refresh null.
Like for this change, yes massive alliances have always been able to stamp out smaller ones, and often do.
The only reason they don’t do it more, is the effort to actually do it, is not worth the time. Which when this goes live will no longer be the case.
If others were able to be interfaced and communicated with, then you wouldn’t be the one in the fire so much, but as your the only one who ever speaks up, you are the target in the dark, and like I said in the other post, we go off the rails.
If your alliance is not making plans to scour sections of highsec and lowsec for super easy kills, then they are missing out, others certainly are. Pochven is even worse because that is the easiest region to access and filled with easy kill loot pinatas.
4 Likes
Look at I-RED that lives on the east side of Sydicate. A great many large groups have tried to control the area for the 8+ years they’ve been there, but it’s always been about partisan warfare and defense in depth against the aggravation of the larger group that for the most part only wants the moon resources but doesn’t want to live there. Also, almost all the content has been about medium structures, usually about the armor timer. And they might seem inexpensive to the big fish, they certainly aren’t for small groups which can niether afford many large structures in their resource-poor areas, nor have the logistics assets to continously be moving all the stuff everytime some larger entity sets a shield times.
2 Likes
I think you misunderstand this or came to a conclusion that I was not suggesting, it is a strategic issue to have a Large structure such as a Fort that can hold capitals, the Astrahus are a backup and but often people do not have Fotizars for this very reason, Why attract people to come in and blow your stuff up by having a Fortizar.
With these changes people will be forced to move to Fortizars, and thus become a bigger target. The defence in depth of having to chew through a load of Astrahus’s was important.
And this is also an issue, because it takes a week for asset safety to relocate assets in system, so with the new rules in that week all the structures could be removed and we find ourselves with all the stuff in lowsec, there is no fight period. That is why moving to a structure without a shield timer is required as the first order of defence so they can keep fighting.
I am not saying that they don’t make a defence even with this change, but it will be a lot easier to remove them.
Here is the thing, when you live next to big blocs you have to have a stance that is not threatening, so having that capability to jump into dreads is a major step up, plus the loot of the core is so much greater. The experience of the people I was in that the large structures were the main focus, so they came in blew them up, then they just chewed on the smaller stuff, sent less people and there was fights and it came down to how much they really wanted that area and often they did not, so they stopped and people were able to rebuild. With the change that second stage is so much easier for the attackers.
I am not trying to be insulting, but your thought process changes when you are in big blocs, and with large levels of resources and many systems, this is not the same as what I am talking about as there is not that depth. You strategic driver are so different and I think you are not taking the importance of being a pain to chew through multiple medium structures enables people to maintain that foothold.
I am trying so hard to make the strategic implications of this change to small groups clear.
10 Likes
Another solution:
Give M structures separate rules in Low/High sec vs Null sec. This already exists with bubbles and bombs and used to exist with more things like doomsdays, too. It’s a bad solution, but clearly the Null people want to be able to knock over 2 dozen astras in an evening while the low people tend to want to fight for theirs. I don’t specifically like it because of the previously mentioned ability of groups to antagonize large blocs, but at least it wouldn’t be yet another example of Null forcing everyone else to play the way they want.
I’m really not sure why this is such an adamant issue that must be rammed through. The people pointing out what this set of changes will do to their playstyle have been remarkably consistent, with barely even a ‘But my miner/ganker’ post thrown in to detract, and those are almost always a problem.
15 Likes
@CCP_Aurora you guys still planning on doing it?
2 Likes
You should just make it 1 timer on war HQs and remove shield cap.
Also dread changes are fine
@CCP_Aurora currently when you do the armor timer on a structure and push it to final timer, the structure goes into low power mode. When this happens it triggers an asset safety notification that informs players that have assets in said structure that those assets will be going to asset safety soon. This allows players the chance to move items that they don’t wish to have stuck in asset safety and then have to pay for in order to get them back.
With these impending changes will that low power / asset safety notification move to after the shields are reinforced, since the armor and hull timers are now going to be combined?
Obviously this is only an issue with medium structures so just wondering if there were any plans to change when that notification gets pushed to players. If not then anyone with assets in there that they don’t want to see moved to asset safety have minutes to get there and move them.
@Brisc_Rubal tagging you for visibility.
4 Likes
Most of these small groups in Null/Lowsec/Whs are the small niche builders/collectors. They very much contribute to the Eve economy. Take away their way of doing things by making it impossible to survive in those areas, by making their homes/factories/etc disposable and they will say screw this and leave. CCP has to quit its war on the small scale industry guys. They need to quit the constant changing without proper thought. All these problems can be traced back to dumb changes being introduced. The Eve economy is crapping out, everyone is tired of the constant nerfs. PVP should not be a content provider, it should be a byproduct of a properly running game. CCP needs to come up with different ideas for that. Personally I hate PVP, I used to be able to play the way I liked without having to get into PVP very much. I understand loosing stuff is part of the game. But when all the rules get bent to where I cant have fun playing my way anymore, and yes mining, building etc is what I call interesting game play, then why would I continue to play. And Ive been playing this game for about 13 years, So I do know what i got into by playing EVE.
10 Likes
Our small group have resided in npc null sec for many years. With the exception of the odd pos, living out of the few npc stations provided. Big blocks controlled all the valuable moons and our industry consisted of a few ratters. After citadels were introduced, has it really been 7 years? we spread our wings. Filling out the great wastelands and growing our numbers. We have doggedly fought the larger groups who have periodically attempted to evict us. Surviving nerf after nerf all the while broadening our industry base. The wolves are already circling as they smell blood. This latest nerf to medium citadels will likely end with our diehards back in npc stations as those less committed leave null or join the closest blue donut. This game doesn’t provide any money back guarantees. Thank you to all the players who supported us and to those content providers over the years (you know who you are). We wont go quietly, and remember to use the space you must control the space. CCP’s lack of support to smaller sized groups becomes increasingly clear with every patch. Fly safe o/
15 Likes
Is an Azbel a suitable staging replacement for an Astrahus? It is Large and considerably cheaper than a Fortizar. It does not provoke strategic response as it cannot house a dreadnaught fleet.
And there you go nicely said. Its always easier to go kill the little guys. This will be nothing short of a big fat kid beating up everyone and stealing their chocolate bars. The great PVPer hunt for the easy kills, and the big candy bags.
3 Likes
it also is considerably more vulnerable than even an Astrahus. Worse slot layout, bit better fitting, only mildly comparable DPS, and a 3b kill incentive in its core.
The only thing that it gets over Astra is PDS, and it has to give up an energy neut for that, making it more vulnerable to attack if so chosen to make that choice
Edit: A Tatara could be a reasonable mid-point. It has higher DPS, and a better slot layout than the Astra, and can’t stage caps sans the rorqual, however it cannot field heavy fighters, somewhat hampering its defense potential. Still better than Astra, but still not as defensible as fort, and that quantum core is still a juicy payday that will draw people’s eyes.
4 Likes
I have noticed that the changes CCP has made over the years (since 2009) have consistently been to reduce “weaponized boredom” for the big fishes, and quite coincidentally player population has also declined. Shocked Pikachu. The big fishes celebrate, have some fun for a while, then go away (or skirmish among themselves) until the next time there is again chum in the waters.
It is really pointless to defend a medium structure, especially in lowsec. Supercarriers at over 2000 km from stuctures, outside of Upwell defenses range, and they bat-phone nulsec and navy buddies for a dread-bomb if threatened. Been there. Done that (one dread died, supers got away, defenders were obliterated, and a year later the lowsec region was still empty).
Quantum cores just made it worse with more no-risk reward. With 1 timer it is even more pointless to defend, with armor timer = time to evac.
I can also say from experience that defending an Azbel is also equally pointless. Really, the industrial structures have been shafted since inception with exceptionally weak defenses. It wouldn’t be balance-breaking to make them equal to citadels, given how weak citadels already are.
But hey, do continue to promote Fortizars as being the new entry-level structure. I have a ME:9 Fortizar BPO that has been way under performing for years.
7 Likes
You’ve asked for hard numbers so I’ll give you ones I have as a line member of EM. (Elsebeth’s corporation and alliance.)
Armor timers are one of the most common fleet types for me to attend. If you look at my killboard you’ll probably see that I’ve recently returned from a long break. Roughly the beginning of March. Since that time I’ve attended four armor defense fleets and two hull defenses all for other friendly entities. I’ve also been on two shield, two armor, and one hull attack fleets. All these fleets were contesting medium sized structures.
If you remove the armor and no behavior changes occurred 6/11 of the structure related fleets I’ve participated in would not have happened. However given expected behavior changes there will probably be far fewer.
Other fleets I’ve attended in that time. (2) Incursions, (~6) PvP Roams, (1) Event, (4) FW PvP.
I’ve fought in null sec wars, I remember how boring POS bashes were. But those experiences dont translate to the high/low sec border. Even fights where the enemy decides to retreat are more interesting in low sec than in null sec. I believe this is because there’s still more room for tactical fleet movements and attempts to engage.
I really hope that CSM and CCP will reconsider this change. It wont make me quit, but I do believe it will make the world less interesting.
17 Likes
OK, I been playing EVE since 2014. In that time I have seen changes in EVE I disagree with, and some that I have enjoyed, but none that ever wanted to make me post on any forum. I have taken most in stride and learned to adjust. But this change will destroy the way I, and many people like me, play the game so I feel I had to say something, though I know it will fall on deaf ears.
CCP seems to be hell bent on eliminating the occasional player and small corp structure. First, they came for our moons ores, then they nerfed the ore belts themselves. Once prized faction BPC drops suddenly cost more to make than the product itself with the addition of costly components. Even the events have gone from fun and profitable to a mind numbing grind that usually results in little profit for the time invested.
And now, these changes to medium structures all but eliminate them from being a viable asset to any corporation. With the elimination of a third round of defense and reduction of hull to -75% it will only take a few days to destroy any medium structure, even less time in wormhole space, where these structures are most important for a corporation to survive and thrive.
We are a small wormhole corp, living out of the spotlight but still a major contributor of EVE and its gameplay. I know many small corps take to living in J space and are industrialists and producers, using the riches from wh space to produce goods for the EVE universe. We still have to fend of the occasional attack on our ships and structures, but staying out of the mainstream avenues of EVE we are afforded a certain amount of protection that the randomness of J space provides. The medium structures are the life blood of any corp who calls J space home. They were sturdy enough to withstand the occasional attack and stable enough to place our materials and goods safely inside. These changes coming to medium structures will make them so fragile they will become targets for anyone who can set up a small fleet and wait a day or two to eliminate a structure. As such medium structures will no longer be a viable option for wh corps. Without them J space will become a barren wasteland once again, and CCP will be eliminating a constant source of materials and production from EVE. They will also be eliminating the small industrial corps from the landscape, making the mega corps even bigger in the EVE universe.
While I have no desire to quit playing, I am not sure what I will do next if these changes take effect. I hate to lose my wh home and see my corp disappear because of the fundamentals it was founded on are no longer supported in EVE gameplay. I wish CCP would listen to its smaller corps and players and let them play without being forced to adapt to the larger corporations and their doctrine. After all, even the largest corp started as someones smaller dream at one time.
Fozzie
14 Likes
I would not mind the changes if they made it “Slightly easier to kill” but the changes CCP proposes affect the whole dynamics of the ability of smaller corps to protect their structures.
We are a small wh corp. As the mechanics stand today, if we log on and find our structure has no shield, we don’t panic. We try to muster up as much defense as we can and wait for the attackers to return. Usually it is a small fleet, sometimes it is a lone pilot, and other times it was just a target of opportunity and no one shows up again. If it is a small fleet or a lone hot shot pilot, we usually can defend and take care of the situation. However, if it is a larger fleet we defend the best we can and plan out our next move if they get through our armor. If we think we can muster up the forces to beat them, we do. If not, we get out as much as we can and fight till we die. Either way we fight, and fight hard. And we are prepared to fight because we have had days to prepare, and at least one cycle to gather intelligence on our enemy.
Now if these changes happen and we log on to find our shields gone, we panic. Who hit us? How big were they. Can we get the forces here in a matter of a day or so, depending on when they knocked down the shield. If they knocked out our shields right after we logged out, we may have less than a day to mount a defense. While that may be fine in high, low or null sec, wh space is a whole different beast. Your ally, who was just two jumps away yesterday, may be 50 jumps away or behind a wall of low or null sec systems. You can roll the hole, but you are wasting time by doing that with no guarantee it will bring you any closer to a friendly force. No matter what you do, you will be second guessing yourself and now that you will lose it all without any chance to evacuate or mount a defense based on reliable intelligence.
The time element also make the structures much more vulnerable than before. Most attacking corps don’t want to waste the manpower or the resources to stalk out your system to get the kill. Those of us that live in J space count on that. 
Some corps do stake out your system, and do it successfully, but most will only do it if they see it worth their time. Even then, with the second attack, the defender gets to see what they are up against and plan accordingly. The final battle for the hull usually will be a big one, or the occupants will have fled with what they can. Either way they have made their choice based on reliable intelligence by fighting the attackers at least once. With these changes CCP is going to implement both those factors have been removed, making attacking a medium structure in wh space so much easier, and defending it so much more difficult.
Fozzie
10 Likes