Totally invented (to make clear I am agreeing with you.)
The structure spam thing is just plain wrong, take hisec, now there are so many systems without a single structure. When I see people going on about structure spam it seems like a buzz word, I wish they would be more specific about what they mean, because it is just so meaningless.
And hilariously taken out of context for literally anybody who remembers how many towers, broken tower bits, etc used to be in every system as well.
This change is very much a 'Null sec FCâs are tired of having to clear their space, and maybe a small handful of systems in Eve have too many structures, so everyone gets to suffer now.
Towers were limited by how many moons there were in system and left over modules could be destroyed without timers. Structure spam is not taken out of context or exaggerated. Itâs an issue all over null sec where there is activity. Delve is swamped with structures in every single system, many more than there could have ever been towers. And so is every other part of null sec that boasts high activity.
Not that this change is going to improve anything in that regard. That would actually require a serious rework of the entire system with numeric limitations on how many structures a system/constellation can hold, among other things.
Serious question, why is that spam an issue? The people in nullsec using their space and setting up structures to do so. You obviously donât like it but what is the reason for your feeling?
Another question is there really structure spam in hisec now, at this point? I donât think so and yet people go on and on about hisec structure spam, it is meaningless.
Lag, croweded brackets/overview, harder time to follow targets to a point in space and re-engage them, way too much safety due to the sheer number of structures on some grids, harder time intercepting people when they warp out of their anom/site to âsafetyâ (remember the people who put up stop bubbles on towers to stop warping away carriers/ishtars/supers to drop them), and so on.
In addition to that: It just does not look good at all from an appealing experience point of view. You have crap loads of the same structures spammed on the grid, instead of one large, sprawling hub.
The entirety of Kimotoro and surrounding systems, around Amarr, Dodi, Rens, in Hek, Keberz, Osmon, Reisen, Airaken, Faurent, Iyen-Oursta, Kamio, Sobaseki, Korama, Oimmo, Vourrassi, Hageken, Poinen. Just to name a few.
So every system in Delve has 40+ structures in it? I mean, Sobaseki right next to Jita has 40 moons. Muvolailen 44. These are just quick checks of random systems off my Jita alt. Thatâs kinda low compared to how many moons some systems have. Maurasi, also next to Jita has 81. Every system in Delve has 80+ structures in it?
Further, thank you much for reinforcing this is a problem for Null sec, largely one theyâve created for themselves, and the issue is theyâre unable to muster the commitment to continue to keep their space clear of structures. Maybe they should own less space so they have less to clean. Kinda the whole point of a downward pressure tool.
They did not create it themselves. It was created by CCP with their crappy implementation of the Structure system.
Almost every system there has at least 20 structures in it. Many have more depending on how many worthwhile moons there are.
So well in line with the tower system. Interesting.
Not in line with it. You did not have that many towers in every system because most systems didnât have that many good moons to mine. You also didnât need towers because you had 1 outpost in system that could do all the things that dozens of structures do these days.
Lag, I have bee in large fleet fights with numbers of structures, but having been there without the large fleets it was not that laggy. In terms of following targets to a point in space, yeah, maybe, but I have bookmark folders around key points that do that too. But isnât that an interface design issue in that you are unable to clear things in space from your HUD rather than the structures themselves? If CCP could adjust the UI so that in space view of structures were removed taht would solver that irritation.
The thing about stop bubbles and warping to safety is the advantage they have in using their space. It makes hunting harder yeah, been there and done it too, but it is what it is.
To me structures in space is actually visually pleasing as in the space is being used.
Hisec have some areas with many structures but they are getting attacked all the time now, there are many parts of hisec without any structures at all.
I noted the moon comment @Kenrailae , my experience with moons in hisec prior to structures was just how much they were all used.
Hold your horses there, any serious industrialist had towers because they gave advantage, those systems were choc a block with POS towers.
People didnât just put up towers for mining moons. Some were for moons, some for staging, some for personal stuff. But it is comparable to the number of towers. Heck, there used to be a whole sov system based on 'em lol.
The point is yâall are advocating for something that will wipe out other portions of the game because youâve went and put 2 dozen structures up in all your systems(for whatever reason), and some people have put up some strays to irritate you in the mix, too. Your peeps are over here demanding other people prove they exist so their playstyle doesnât get thrown out in the graveyard of playstyles CCP has destroyed over the years.
I can empathize with the issue of structures in Null. Hell, I agree with it to an extent. But not at the expense of crushing other people yet again, because of a problem Null sec has created for itself.
This is my perspective as well, that at least back when Towers were the mode for doing everything, you pretty much had to strip a moon of whatever tower parts were left on it before being able to put your own up. OFC there were some empty ones, and Iâm sure some of those set ups had been abandoned for years, but they were still there.
Just to be clear, major nullsec blocs, I am in NPC nullsec, one could argue that we have spammed the systems with structures if you looked at it with a lack of understanding, but all are being used and all have purpose. The fuel and cost means that we donât just put them down to annoy people.
It was not created by null sec, it was created by CCP and their stupid implementation of structures. The old system had reasonable limitations in place on how many things you could put up in your space. CCP removed all these limitations and made it necessary to have a ton of different structures in space just to do the same things.
These people lived much better lives back then when there were no structures. In contrast to structures and all their ever increasing costs to slow their unnecessary spreading, towers allowed for better utilization thanks to better safety. The entire module system was cumbersome and cancerous, sure, but you could have a tower or two in places without painting a huge red KICK ME HERE IN THE BALLS all over your body.
Not that I want to go back to towers per se, but with them I could have a nice little setup that I did not have to keep an eye on every single day. With structures, thatâs not possible at all. Not just because of players but also because of these stupid diamond NPC that love to shoot structures all the time. Structures killed more gameplay than anything else.
CCP didnât put the structures up. Null blocs did. Stop blaming CCP for what players did.
Now, was CCPâs system flawed because they never think ahead, because nobody in that office EVER asks what happens when there are hundreds of these? Sure. But CCP did not go and anchor all these structures in space.
It also sounds like you agree with structure limitations per system and re-implementing a towers-esque type structure rather than what citadels are. Hey, I agree. Thatâs just part of a package of changes that needs to happen to fix the mess of structures. But on that list should NOT be making these things impossible for smaller groups to field with any degree of confidence without a proper replacement. I donât think thatâs an unreasonable ask.
If CCP has that proper replacement coming, then they sure as heck need to say so because the playerbase has pretty much just been getting stick after stick after stick for how many years now? Whereâs the carrot?
So, like, giving structure more module options? Maybe being able to boost an astraâs hitpoints via resist mods to the infamous d*ckstar level to dishearten attacks? Maybe make structures auto attack any neutral/hostile in range?
Or maybe scrape this whole idea and go back to the drawing board because without a proper replacement (I will not be going back to POSes, tyvm) there will hardly be point to be in certain parts of space for reasons others than the nebulae.
Those are a few options, yeah. Thereâre others that have been listed a few times throughout this thread. The big point to referencing towers, though, is because theyâre the system that preceded citadels and at the moment, the most pathetic of small towers were about 3x more effective than an astra will be after this set of changes, and theyâll be using pretty much comparable reinforcement/siege mechanics as towers faced, too.
At this point I am trying to understand CCPâs reasoning here more than anything else:
So balance is the key thing here, but what are they actually trying to balance?
That is babble speak, I am sorry but I am no clearer at what they are trying to say here. I think they feel that they are too cheap, their role bonuses are too close to the more expensive ones.
Taking from that I feel that they have made the decision to effectively remove them from the game because they are too much of a pain to balance, which is why making them even weaker and effectively throwaway structures is actually the best way. The concept of throwaway is a bit odd to me because I think even medium ones are sizeable investments, but that is because I am living around the edges in NPC nullsec and obviously do not get Eve at all?
So perhaps CCP might be better telling us this directly, I am still not sure what the hell this gains them in terms of the game, but I really donât know what they hell they are doing here?
What is the goal of this âimproved balanceâ?
Is it really to address structure spam? If so, why not simply have an exponential fuel cost applied for every additional medium structure in a system (excuding buildings like ansiblexes, cyno beacons, etc). It rewards people that were there first â incentivizing long-term residents â and makes it cost prohibitive for smaller groups to operate in crowded environments. The economic negative feedback loop self-regulates.
For example (with completely arbitrary numbers):
The fuel queue shifts as structures are blown up. If the 1st medium structure in system gets blown up, the 2nd now gets moved up to be the 1st and has its fuel costs lowered. Hooray, the newer residents get rewarded for staying there long term now. This provides economic incentive for attackers whose goal is to inhabit the space they are attacking without providing additional incentives for âletâs just grief smaller corpsâ medium structuresâ (the status quo remains).
If youâre a small group in a lone system, things carry on as normal. If youâre the group with the 2nd medium structure in system, you have incentive to blow up the group of whoever owns the 1st medium structure.
Nullsec might care a little bit but typically has the scale to address these higher costs, while smaller groups donât, which disincentivizes structure spam and incentivizes small groups spreading out, without adding more incentives for bigger groups to blow up smaller groupsâ medium structures âjust because we can and its easierâ (they still can for the existing reasons â just no new reasons are introduced).
For WH space, I canât comment (I have no experience) so this idea might suit them terribly as well.
Why would you add fuels costs on Athanors for example, they are there to pull moon goo to field to be mined. Maybe just allow one single moon grabber structure that pulls from every moon then?
Maybe another great step is to enable the indy structures to do everything in one structure? Radical idea thatâŚ
My suggestion is just that: merely an illustrative example. Feel free to adjust it as you see fit. Exclude Athanors, whatever else. My only point is that the goal is unclear, and just reading the temperature of the room it sounds like the goal is âreduce structure spamâ and I just wanted to provide an illustrative example on how thereâs other ways to achieve that without mucking about reinforcement timers, which seems disproportionately hostile to small group gameplay.
I acknowledge I donât understand what the stated goal of this change is. If it is the same as the past change, it is:
Which, TBH, I donât follow the logic how the proposed timer changes for medium structures address âon-grid ship varietyâ at all.