Siege Green - Structure Updates Now Avaialble for Testing

Feature Previews & Feedback Balance and Mechanics
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Here is someting that is really crucial in how hard it screws over highsec:

Combine this with the reduced defences and only having 1 timer that will follow the above rule.

Most groups will get started with just 1 structure and it’s going to be a medium structure as that is the most affordable and it used to be the least interesting to specificly target for effort vs reward.

Having 1 structure means it is automaticly the war HQ. With these changes a wardec could be made on Thursday, the shield attack on Friday and before Sunday is over, the structure is gone. Meaning that at best there is a 72 hour window after the wardec in which the defenders need to have organised themselves, get help and coordinate with allies and hope they were able to gather intel on what to expect from the attacker. Not to mention that there is a extremely limited window in which things can be moved out of the structure or things are locked behind asset safety.

With regard to the timer and response time its effectively exactly the same situation as in Wormholes and for wormholes it is considered to be too harsh.

Not to mention that the attackers tend to just go after highsec structures for a quick buck or easy content/killmails. With these changes a lot more structures will suddenly become interesting targets because it yields solid rewards for the investment in time, effort and warcosts and a lot more can be earned in a shorter amount of time.
It’s going to be a short goldrush for very specific groups but leave a more barren game with fewer players wanting to keep playing and that will hurt everyone within the game.

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225

I am concerned that even after I gave you numbers your only response seems to be asking other people for numbers.

Is there any chance we can convince you or CCP to change their minds about this, or are you just trying to justify a change that’s inevitable?

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You’re not a wormholer. He’s a wormholer. I’m asking about his experience.

You don’t need to convince me, you need to convince CCP. I’ve made sure to point out these comments to Aurora, and what happens is up to her. I don’t expect to see many changes, other than the timing for the WHers. I think we can get that done.

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Wormholes aren’t the only place where this change does more harm than good.

Please pass on to Aurora that not rolling out this change at all or if it must be done only in null sec is far better than actually making this change.

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I’m not going to tell her something I don’t agree with.

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What can we do to convince you?

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Well in my personal experience, that depends on your definition of “serious attacker”.

We’ve hired mercs several times, and they were usually successful when the attacker wasn’t equally as serious.

We’ve also hired mercs, and still lost structures when they were outmatched. We’ve even paid for ‘allies’ but that has never been successful (the allies never seem serious).

We’ve also had our structures defended by random roaming fleets, as well as neighbours (who knew they’d be next). These tended to result in the largest fleets, most destruction, and always failed when the attackers escalated.

We’ve lost around 19 medium Upwell. Probably saved 7. Only 3 remain.

Why even bother? Well I personally suffered a 25 billion ISK asset safety fee on one loss, and some of my corpmates had an even larger investments to protect. Note that larger structures are not safer, just bigger targets, bigger losses, and cost a STUPID amount for rigs.

I recently had a ‘save’ when the attackers made me a ransom offer, but I made a counter offer to sell it to them at 1/2 market price, which would be more than they’d get by destroying it.
They took pity and dropped the wardec for the final timer. Not counting this one though.

Only counting hisec and lowsec structures, as when someone decides to evict you from nulsec, you can usually consider yourself evicted (“grr Goons!” everytime)

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You don’t need to convince me. You need to convince Aurora. There’s plenty of good feedback in this thread.

This is my point. These things are almost impossible to defend now - this change isn’t going to make them that less defensible. All it does is accelerate your decisionmaking process on when to get out. That’s why I’m suggesting two extra days so you guys have time to get your stuff out.

In the end, these structures aren’t going to survive no matter how many timers you get if the other side is sufficiently motivated and can outnumber you.

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Multiple times.

Generally a few times a year it gets to an actual battle or an attempt on a timer, and it usually involves calling in a few favors, and the other side seeing the force that were able to muster, and then backing down.

Hell, the warfare starts when the would-be attackers start logging off scouts in the hole…but that’s another matter entirely. 24/7 hole control is serious business, and it effin sucks…but it’s important.

As for the means… Try living with 1-3 structures having nearly all of your non-HS assets in it, and then losing them – not to asset safety, but straight up losing them.
Any sort of attack on them will change your judgement on that. Think about life WITHOUT asset safety (asset safety should be a HS/LS thing exclusively…but that’s another discussion, not nearly enough risk compared to the stupid amount of profit that NS provides the blue donuts).

Oh, and then the rewards for the attackers… it is going to profitable to attack medium structures for the core alone with this change. How about when an extra 10,000%-500,000% of value is dropped in cargo containers around the wreck containing the core?

Evicting low-class Wh folks for profit was already an issue, and it lead to the near death of WH space in higher class WHs due to the bigger groups doing it prolifically — until their usual rage-roll ops stopped getting them content, and they learned what it was like to be the only fish in the sea, with nothing around to poke at. They have since learned, and allow ( to some extent) other groups to live and enjoy WH space, but it is still a much lower number than it was years ago – no point in ~250m/hr if your ship averages 4 hours of ratting before it gets ganked and costs 800+ mil, you’d get better isk in a HS hulk (after purchasing a CODE mining license).

Seriously, the comment a handful of posts above warning about the drastic impacts this will have to LS are no joke, only it will happen to WH groups 5x as hard. Only the groups large enough to use a keepstar will be able to safely live there.

If you think you will be happy in nullsec with titan brawls and counter forming against those who attack your miners as the sole source of PVP for your group, you will have to deal with the answer… perhaps not your personal answer, but the answer of the average lineman who hops in fleet and has expectations of PVP that you will bring them. Expectations that will be more than what you are able to provide, in spite of the effort you put forth to it.
Though…the other blue donut will probably have the same issue, and then the null blocs can whelp fleets into each other, which comes full circle in the null blocs not really being impacted by this in the same way as everybody else.

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233

With a single timer, I know our losses would be much higher.

I login everyday just to check for wars and attacks, but the majority of the losses have occured when I missed.

With a single timer, that becomes even more problematic. It takes time to organize a defense, regardless of its success rate, or to evac everyone and everything.

Since you recognize their weakness, perhaps you should advocate to fix it rather than to amplify it, as you are admitting that they aren’t a problem for the serious.

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I have already said, multiple times, that I’ve asked for more time for you guys so that it’s possible for you to get your stuff out or organize a defense. I think that’s fair, given the lack of asset safety.

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Yet the example of I-Red numerous of these structures have managed to remain despite numerous groups trying to take all the high value moons in Syndicate. Defense in depth because they required sustained effort against a determined but much smaller entity is why they remain. With this change that defense in depth will be much much less, and larger groups have to put much less effort in both resources and time to achieve their objectives.

Addressing a prior comment, I really don’t see the structure spam and are really unclear on what this proposal is trying to change. Everywhere I’ve lived in EVE (NPC Null, LS and Sov Null) every medium structure has a purpose and is being faithfully fueled. If this is only a HS problem than the solution needs to be much precise in it’s application.

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236

It really takes 2 timers. One for each side to size each other up, i.e. judge “how serious”. One to act: fight or flight. With only one timer, it is all-or-nothing, which is hard pill for smaller groups to swallow. That doesn’t promote content.

As someone that has evaced, was surpsied to win and went back, it honestly took me a year to move back in, and I also downsized. There are zero plans to rebuild once the remaining structures are gone. Quantum cores alone discourage that. A single timer and weakened defences ensures it will happen sooner rather than later.

I’m not typical, individually having more resources than some entire corps do. They will probably find it tougher to deal with.

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237

too many people bitching and moaning about this update. it’s eve. losing structures is apart of it. rebuild, reconquer, get fukked again. rinse and repeat

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Structures are not comparable to ships.

Losing a ship is a more recoverable loss than losing all / most of your ships and all / most of your stuff.

It also isn’t an individual loss, rather a group loss, affecting many people at once. Even those that weren’t in the battle.

There is loss in Eve, but it is still a game.

There has to be balance to retain more than just the hardcore perma-death practitioners dueling frigates at the sun.

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Two successful armour timers last night on two Athanors, enemy did not show for both as defence fleet was formed. Though diplomacy could have come into play here… (just found that out.)

They are weak and impossible to defend if a big bloc comes for them in full CTA force or drops supers at range, but making them even harder to defend is not what’s needed.

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Then stop complaining about how it takes 3 dread cycles to ref a medium structure. And stop pretending that nearly anyone defending a medium structure is going to care whether there is tether or not after the shields.

Blockquote

No, your statements are what they are, and they are almost all incorrect.

Content was the only thing that fight was about.

241

Let us get rid of structures in high sec and possibly low sec. As @Brisc_Rubal has pointed out, and I agree small groups have no chance against large groups, they change nothing in the N+100. Is this a crazy recommendation?

If you remove structures from High and Low and replace them with NPC structures based on what almost everyone has said above, there would be no loss of content, just less big vs small content if you want to call it content. This would allow small groups to grow and make a chance of going into Null and disrupting things in the future.

It levels the playing field on tax and manufacturing in high sec and possibly low sec if you went that way. The Empires could launch their own athanors on moons, and rent them capsules like they do offices in NPC stations. You could give the renters access to fuel the Athanors so that the PI/Ice/Fuel market doesn’t implod.

It would create better control of an isk sink, get rid of the player markets/custom offices that print isk for most, not all. And could encourage many more people into low sec, which has been a huge challenge. If you could rent a moon from the Empire in low, many more small groups would risk it, creating I believe a lot of content. Along with high sec as well.

For null, I believe this totally makes sense, if your block can’t defend well it is what it is. For WH I have no idea, not my game style.

JJ

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The first thing that should be noted is that major blocks do not call CTA’s to murder medium structures owned by randoms, they might call a campaign to murder a number of structures like the Test coalition did against Simple Farmers in Catch.

So when people start taking about N+100 for Astrahus’s I have to ask how often does that happen in terms of those owned by small groups like the one I am with?

I can see a few 100+ detailed on that, the thing is how many of those are campaign related? I see a Goon campaign in Feythabolis perhaps, I see PH taking out a War decker HQ, and Frat clearing up around their space a little. But not really seeing those big 100+ CTA of major bloc’s going after Astrahus belonging to randoms in a routine way?

So how much does that really happen in terms of medium structures? That is a valid question.

Another valid question has to be whether it is a good thing for the game to enable big blocs to clear up regions easier than they can now? CCP needs to think about how long a region lies fallow now with a reluctance to fully clean based on three timers is too much for all that random medium crap… It would obviously take a lot less time and they will do it, perhaps…, maybe not because they get bored fast, still more dead spots, and less activity overall.

I am pretty much resigned to CCP doing this, I have evacuated some stuff and moved some stuff around to get around the asset safety issue in terms of defence, though outside my TZ sadly. Asset safety back to lowsec is not so bad as it is not one that gets the crap camped out of it, so no biggie, and I moved a ton of stuff out of Faspara without loss.

The end result of all this will be what my first post was in this thread, I will likely be back in hisec at some point saying, hmmm what to do…

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I don’t get it. So from what I’ve read above both those for and against current proposal here agree that small cits are already easy to kill… and the solution is to make them easier to kill… …?.. :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: …?

I see this as a leap of logic; I’m trying my best to give this topic the benefit of doubt but it all seems like a troll. Please enlighten me.

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